Sorry if this sound a bit blunt but
what will be achieved by choosing this tariff?
will it result in less polution and if so how?

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2335&page=1#Item_0

Those electrons don't have labels on them; they're all mixed together in one soup however green or dirty the source.

It is just about conceivable that some of the extra money goes to supporting new renewable projects, but I'd guess it goes to the bottom line, and makes them look slightly green.

What if all Eon customers switched to the 'green' tarriff?

surely they would then run out of 'green units' availble to supply the customers?

If they actually spend the extra money on building more green power production facilities I would 'buy in' to it!

I'm saying that it's a bit of window dressing to make them look green and people who subscribe to it feel good.

Looking at that map there is a total of 2100 peak megawatt capacity in some stage between "we've just thought about it" and "we might start building in a year or two".

I see they include 1600Mw of Kingsnorth coal in their renewable contribution!

In 2007 the UK was supplied with 373 Twh of electrical energy, this represents a continuous generating capacity of 42,200 Mw. At full capacity the proposed Eon renewables only represents 5% of demand. As most of it is wind power the actual production will be less than 20% of peak, so it is actually only going to supply 1% of demand.

And of course they have to do it anyway regardless of whether their customers buy into a green tariff or not.

The biggest cheat with these tariffs is that the energy suppiers have to by law produce a certain percentage from renewables. So you're paying a premium to help them comply with their legal obligations. Only those tariffs which use your money to build additional capacity are ethical, but finding out the information is nigh on impossible. Unfortunately, Friends of the Earth haven't repeated their survey of tariffs that they carried out a few years ago. It's a shame because greedy suppliers are giving renewables a bad name. My tuppence worth given.

As LizM says "The biggest cheat with these tariffs is that the energy suppiers have to by law produce a certain percentage from renewables. So you're paying a premium to help them comply with their legal obligations. Only those tariffs which use your money to build additional capacity are ethical"
Perfectly put , Its a con
If I heat my conservatory with this type of green electricity does this mean I can say to my friends "Its ok its renewable" ?

Your not 'going green' signing up to these sudo green tariffs , its a exercise in marketing to make everyone to feel good about themselves
, invest your consumer power elsewhere

Mark Brinkley explains it clearer than I can
http://www.housebuildersupdate.co.uk/2006/03/green-electricty-illusion.html
this was written in 2006 so things may have changed
in the previous thread mentioned, ecotricity and good energy seem the best way to go if you want green power from the grid

I've just changed to 'Eon capped no service charge' tariff from 'southern RSPB scheme' which Ive been with for 8+years
I like the' no service charge tariffs' as every Kw I reduce my consumption I see a larger bill reduction
I'm trying to investing my saved money into reducing my consumption
Which I see as the first priority

cheers Jim

If you mean 'these producers' ecotriity,good energy, etc then I'm still not sure
Ethically supporting the green producers is ok as long as the customer understands that its just an ethical issue and all they get is standard generated power .
as you say ,to show the big producers there a potential market for renewables
the big producers are interested in profit nothing more
like BP and all their green ads , and wholesome green flower looking logo,
I heard 5% of there research budget goes into renewables , so 95% goes into find some more of the poluting money making black gold
Where would we be if those numbers were reversed , somewhere closer to a sustainable solution for increased future energy consumption
I just think I can spend my money more productively on a A++ fridge ( or alternatively ditch the fridge altogether)
cheers Jim

Maybe I can answer this one. I used to write utility billing systems ;-)

When you have an electricity supplier - they don't just bill you for the electric. They have to buy it from somewhere, pay for it's entry onto the grid, and it's exit. There's also transmission charges, based on which area you are in. The actual electrons from the windmill aren't the exact ones that end up in your house, that is correct. But the electricity would not have been put on the grid if you weren't paying for it. And if is wasn't there, there would be power blackouts (Somewhere - not necessarily your street) as the lack of supply to the grid would cause the frequency to drop. This means by choosing a renewable supplier you are asking for renewable generation capacity to be increased to cope with the electric you wish to buy.

What should be avoided is any scheme that offsets emissions from traditional fuel sources, which is basically getting you to pay for the pollution of the generator!?

Also avoid any scheme where the REC (regional electric supplier - or traditional electric company) is selling you their 9.1% renewables obligation at a premium over their regular electric. I.e. by law every supply company must now sell at least 9.1% renewables, but instead of including it in their normal fuel mix, they're separating it and charging more. So your funding their legal obligations not a increase in wind power. You need to make sure they can show their green tariff is in addition to the obliged capacity.

1st April 2006 to 31st March 2007 6.7%
1st April 2007 to 31st March 2008 7.9%
1st April 2008 to 31st March 2009 9.1%
1st April 2009 to 31st March 2010 9.7%
1st April 2010 to 31st March 2011 10.4%
1st April 2011 to 31st March 2012 11.4%
1st April 2012 to 31st March 2013 12.4%
1st April 2013 to 31st March 2014 13.4%
1st April 2014 to 31st March 2015 14.4%
1st April 2015 to 31st March 2016 15.4%

To see how they are doing have a look at the 2006-2007 annual report on this page.
http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainability/Environmnt/RenewablObl/Pages/RenewablObl.aspx

This years report isn't out yet - but interim figures are 22 million MWh. The scariest bit in there is that over 50% of the "Renewable obligation" electricity still comes from burning stuff! :-(

It's simplest to stick to someone like Good Energy who buy 100% carbon free renewable power. And will also credit you for any you generate yourself - even if you don't put it back on the grid - avoiding the cost of meeting the REC's quality criteria and survey. (Although it does seems a waste of the clean power to me if you don't stick it on the grid).

What clicked reading that report - is why Good Energy sell their ROCs - they meet their obligation (which is the same low percentage as everyone else) by presenting the ROCs from the energy they generated. The surplus ROCs can be sold for cash as there's no point hanging on to them!

Simon

SimonH -- perhaps you can help me understand this better.

If every household on a 'GreenElectricityCo' green tariff had a smartmeter that reported back to GreenElectricityCo each customer household's electricity consumption in real time, then I would understand that it would be possible for GreenElectricityCo to match its customers' demand with green electricity supply to the grid. So even though all of the electrons from different sources would be mixed up in the grid, the aggregate demand (load) from GreenElectricityCo's customers would be matched with green electricity generated and supplied to the grid in real time. (And here I have no desire to delve into the question of how it may be possible to modulate the supply from wind farms in such a manner -- that's quite another problem.)

However, not all green tariff customers have smartmeters, much less ones that are in real-time reporting contact with the supplier's control room.

So if GreenElectricityCo is not matching its customers' actual consumption with actual 'green' supply in real time, then its customers are actually consuming electricity with a carbon footprint defined by the grid 'mix' of generation plant types/fuels at each point in time. Hence GreenElectricityCo's customers are paying for a low -- even zero -- CO2 footprint, but the reality of the CO2 externality associated with *their* electricity consumption will be very different. One kWh load at 3am will have a different CO2 externality than a one kWh load at 6pm due to the way in which the fuel/plant mix changes throughout the diurnal grid load cycle.

While you were working on utility billing systems, did you get any sense for what 'matching intervals' the green electricity suppliers actually use?

What about this 'story' doesn't agree with your experience with billing systems? (Did you do the billing systems work under the current British Electricity Trading and Transmission Arrangements -- i.e. electricity trading -- regime?)

k.

Paul I want to live in Canada, they seem to do most things a lot better in terms of common sense and looking out for the people and land! Got any space at your place?

Agu: there is much pressure here to privatize the electricity supply - indeed, that already happened in Ontario with the result that the consumers were saddled with special charges due to the debt that was in place due to the nuclear plants plus prices rose quite a lot (much higher than here in Quebec). Fortunately there is public consensus here in Quebec that a monopoly supplier that's strongly regulated is a good thing - though there is some considerable debate as to whether our prices should be increased to "match the market". This would encourage conservation and would lead to more energy availability for export - where it could (and already is) sold at much higher price than consumers here pay. The increased revenue could then be fed back as dividends to the shareholders (i.e. all the consumers here). It's an interesting argument. I doubt we'll ever see the kind of deregulation that happened in the UK. Even our natural gas is supplied by a monopoly (Gaz Metropolian) which just happens to be majority owned by HydroQuebec - makes it quite interesting in a way.

There's plenty of space here - lots of nice terrains of 1-2 acres available for a few tens of thousands of dollars with building permission - but about an hour outside of Montreal. I nearly bought 2.5acreas overlooking a lake for $15k a few years ago but ended up not doing so. Could have, should have, didn't :) Still lots of plots available in that size range though. Of course, lake access always increases the price :)

KimiK: we're certainly very lucky to have such huge hydro resources here - it ensures a big cushion against rising energy costs since production costs are pretty much fixed at around the 2c per kWh range and are stable so long as the dams get filled. Of course distribution and infrastructure maintenance costs rise but at least the raw materials of the energy source do not. It was recently announced that (if I recall correctly) a Norwegian company is setting up here to make silicon PV arrays with a fixed priced guarantee on their electricity rates for the next 25 years - this indicates to me that consumer rates won't rise much in that time frame either.

Paul in hot (31C) Montreal

Posted By: KimiKAh you can boast of 31C now, and yes, we are certainly envious, but we also know that the coming winter will punish you in equal measure in the negative range of the Celsius scale! :-)

I know what you mean - but winters are getting less severe here - there were few days below -20C daytime high this past winter, though the previous one had about 4 weeks straight of below -15C. Coldest I ever saw here was -33C - we put stuff in the freezer to warm it up ;)

Today, though, we're in the warm humid gulf of Mexico air mass that was dragged up here as hurricane Gustav passed north and west of us - it's now just over 33C (92F) and humid - the humidity is making it feel like 38C. Needless to say the AC is running today.

As for aggregate supply of renewables to the grid, I met it's averaged out per year (or whatever the bulk supply contract stipulates). I doubt it takes into account what tariffs individual consumers are on (smart meters or otherwise). Lots of greenwash I think!

Paul in Montreal.

Ecotricity just got back to me. Their PR officer came across as extremely professional, likable and helpful.

The long and the short of it is that Ecotricity also uses a 'matching period' of 12 months.

Here is an excellent explanation of what happens in the background at Ecotricity: http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/09/16/why-green-electricity-prices-go-up-when-brown-prices-do-part-2/

k.