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    • CommentAuthorStuartB
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008 edited
     
    I have a concern about waking up to a cold house in the middle of a Scottish winter.

    Our new build will be extremely well insulated and airtight (passivhaus standard) and the only heating system we plan on having is a stove for chilly evenings. However, I am concerned that when we get up at 6.30am the house is going to be very cold. There won't be time to light a fire before heading off to work and school. I know all the modelling says the temp shouldn't drop below 16c but it still worries me.

    There is no gas supply. What would you use to provide a blast of heat first thing in the morning to make the house a bit more comfortable? My wife won't accept any replies of "put on a woolly jumper"! She will want to dry off after a shower and dress without wrapping a duvet around her at the same time!

    Any sensible economic, efficient suggestions much appreciated.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    How about using the thermal mass of the house to stop it cooling down -- if you are "very well insulated" then any heavyweight construction will take a week or two too cool down to uncomfortably cold, and still be warm through the night and into the morning, so long as you are all air sealed.
  1.  
    Posted By: StuartBOur new build will be extremely well insulated and airtight (passivhaus standard) and the only heating system we plan on having is a stove for chilly evenings. However, I am concerned that when we get up at 6.30am the house is going to be very cold.


    How will it end up "very cold" if it's well insulated and airtight? How is the heat going to escape (unless you have the windows open or other uncontrolled ventilation)? If it does end up "very cold" then something is wrong.

    One way to mitigate the morning chills is to have a heated floor in the bathroom (even if it's electric, the small area means the power consumption isn't very high and you can have a timer/thermostat so that it is only warm 1st thing in the morning or at bed time). This goes a long way to keep the womenfolk happy as warm feet = happy wife :)

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    I'm with Tony re thermal mass but wonder if water in suitable containers isn't a better option than heavy manufactured materials which need to be transported to the site.
  2.  
    I have been wondering about crushed brick/block/gritsand/lime as a thermal mass internal wall for lightweight bldgs. What does 'the panel' think? Nick
  3.  
    Posted By: Nick ParsonsI have been wondering about crushed brick/block/gritsand/lime as a thermal mass internal wall for lightweight bldgs.


    Stone/concrete/brick and the like have much less thermal mass per unit volume that you'd think. In fact, on a volume for volume basis, wood is just as good. So if you install nice solid wooden flooring this can have a bigger effect on thermal mass than you might think .... and after carrying 1.5 tonnes of new wooden flooring upstairs, I can attest to the fact that it has lots of real mass, not just thermal.

    All that said, if you're airtight and ventilated right, this will have a much bigger impact than anything else. I speak from experience here of having a well insulated airtight wooden frame house that, by the definitions of the thermal mass brigade on this forum is "lightweight" but which is very thermally stable. For example, the temperature changed from low 20s outside to teens and it was a couple of days before the temperature had fallen by 1C inside. Thermal mass is only useful if you have a way of capturing solar gains in it - if you don't then it's not of much use - especially in a Scottish climate in winter when there's precious little solar gain for weeks on end (or is that the summer?!). Thermal mass only works if you have a large diurnal temperature change with insolation being the main driver. If you don't then there's no real benefit assuming you're well insulated and airtight with heat recovery ventilation. And if you don't have these latter two items attended to, you're wasting way more energy than you can store in a pile of old bricks anyway (which isn't very much if you actually calculate it).

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeSep 15th 2008
     
    I read somewhere that some woods contain a resin that melts/solidifies at around room temperatures so that the wood acts partly as a phase change material for heat storage. Anybody know anything about that?
    • CommentAuthorStuartB
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    The reason I asked the question is because Rachel mentioned on another thread that her straw bale house got chilly in winter if she didn't have the stove burning in the evening. I didn't think staw bale houses got chilly which is why I am a bit worried.

    Our new build will have staw bale walls set in a timber frame with clay plastered walls on the inside and larch cladding on the outside. The floors will be a mix of solid oak and tiles. Is this enough/good thermal mass to retain heat? We will also have heat recovery.

    Paul in Montreal - I think the heated bathroom is the way to go, although I was thinking along the lines of a large heated towel rail on a timer rather than a heated floor.
    • CommentAuthorstephendv
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    Posted By: StuartBThe reason I asked the question is because Rachel mentioned on another thread that her straw bale house got chilly in winter if she didn't have the stove burning in the evening. I didn't think staw bale houses got chilly which is why I am a bit worried.


    As Paul mentioned, it'll probably be the airtightness that's the difference. I'm guessing that Rachel's straw bale isn't airtight, nor does it use heat recovery ventilation. The guess is based on a completely unfounded and unfairly generalised hypothesis that there are 2 types of greens on this forum, the techno-greens and the naturo-greens. The naturos like cob, strawbale etc but like everything to be low tech, passive ventilation, wood fires etc. The technos favour mechanical ventilation and airtight design.

    (Cue all those who've built airtight strawbales) :wink:
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    Straw bale tends to be nicely air tight but problems will exist with where they join to fenestration, roof and floors etc.
    • CommentAuthorTheDoctor
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    stoke the stove last thing at night so that there is enough residual heat by 6.30am?

    what sort of flue does the stove have?
    If you build a chunky masonry chimney somewhere central, this will act as a big thermal store that should emanate heat long after the fire has gone out, particularly if it is used daily throughout the winter.

    If you are worried about embodied energy, I have as much sandstone as you could possibly want (and more) going begging in Fife!
    Lift it, and it's yours!
    • CommentAuthorStuartB
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008 edited
     
    Posted By: tonyStraw bale tends to be nicely air tight but problems will exist with where they join to fenestration, roof and floors etc.


    Why Tony?

    Doc - the plan is to have a stone built chimney stack in the wall with a double sided stove, one side facing into the lounge and the other into the hallway. So I would expect this to ratain quite a bit of heat. We also want to use old stone for the porch so I would like to take you up on your offer of the sandstone. :bigsmile: What is your email?
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    Posted By: StuartB
    Our new build will have staw bale walls set in a timber frame with clay plastered walls on the inside and larch cladding on the outside.


    Is there also something else on the outside between the straw and the cladding to make it airtight? If not, what stops air movement through the straw, reducing its insulation value?

    The floors will be a mix of solid oak and tiles. Is this enough/good thermal mass to retain heat? We will also have heat recovery.


    Doesn't this question really come down to 'do you trust the model'? How was it modelled?

    I think the heated bathroom is the way to go, although I was thinking along the lines of a large heated towel rail on a timer rather than a heated floor.


    How are you heating hot water? Can you use a thermal store and use that to provide a burst of heat if required in the morning? That is, if a massive stove chimney can't do the job.

    Cheers, Dave
  4.  
    Posted By: stephendvThe guess is based on a completely unfounded and unfairly generalised hypothesis that there are 2 types of greens on this forum, the techno-greens and the naturo-greens.


    I think we should at least mention a third possibility - appropriate technology. That is, not eliminating technology for the sake of it - being open minded, or including technology for the sake of it.

    I suppose I am thinking of an evidence based approach to decide what is a appropriate.

    (I am not looking for a fight )

    Peter
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    Why is straw bale air tight? -- Answer - because it is a homogeneous material where the joins are air tight by "luck" and once rendered and plastered there is no way for air to get through it = air tight. Any join in it. through it or to it is a potential air leakage problem zone.
    • CommentAuthorStuartB
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    Ah yes Tony, 'potential' air leakage if not done properly - I agree. You previously said there 'will' be problems with any join, not potentially.
    • CommentAuthorTerry
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    as with any building work - proper care and attention to detail will sort the airtightness out. No reason why strawbale should be any more prone to leakage.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    Showering in an air tight house must do wonders for the humidity. I'd be sweaty again buy the time I'm dressed.
  5.  
    Posted By: CWattersShowering in an air tight house must do wonders for the humidity. I'd be sweaty again buy the time I'm dressed.


    Not if you have a HRV fitted with extract vents in all the bathrooms.

    And if you do have an airtight house, you'd be ill advised not to have some kind of MHRV wouldn't you!

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthorDantenz
    • CommentTimeSep 16th 2008
     
    Posted By: StuartBThere is no gas supply. What would you use to provide a blast of heat first thing in the morning to make the house a bit more comfortable? My wife won't accept any replies of "put on a woolly jumper"! She will want to dry off after a shower and dress without wrapping a duvet around her at the same time!



    I'd go air/air heat pump. Fast response, programmable and very efficient.
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