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    • CommentAuthorkrishna
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2007
     
    Just beginning a renovation project. 1920s ex-council house. Mid-terrace. Solid brick walls. Roof is covered with small clay tiles; no membrane - i.e. roof bare to tiles from inside. Minimal insulation in floor of loft. Surveyor indicated some roof work needed immediately (weathered tiles, slipped tiles, etc) and suggested that the entire roof covering may need to be replaced "within the next 10 years". One roofer said he would just replace the tiles that need replacing, another said it wasn't worth it and suggested replacing the lot.

    1. We would like to put insulation in the roof (i.e. behind the tiles) so as to create a warm loft. (Roof too low for use as a regular room, but could be useful for kids or a quiet space.) What do we do about the lack of a membrane under the tiles?

    2. Hoping to externally insulate the walls to the front and rear. Surveyor suggested that the external render will need repair/replacement, so seems like a good time to do this. Is it worth it for a mid-terrace property? We are also hoping to build a single storey rear extension in the not too distant future, so presumably that part of the wall would not need insulating. I guess we would need to wait till the extension was built before installing the external insulation?

    Thanks

    Krishna
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2007
     
    1) there are regulations to comply with for the loft and big fines to pay if not observed.

    My suggestion is to repair/replace as few tiles as possible. Don't bother about sarking felt or lac of it. Insulate at ceiling level with 300mm quilt.

    2) external insulation is a great idea -- definitely do it and make sure that it goes down good and low ( one meter below ground floor level would be good! ) and make sure that it joins up to the loft insulation.
    • CommentAuthorkrishna
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2007
     
    Thanks, Tony. I have a buildings inspector coming round on Wednesday because we are considering removing the entire chimney stack. I'll ask him about the loft. By regulations are you meaning regs on adaptations that affect the structural load on the rafters?

    I presume that when you refer to "ceiling level" you are mean 1st floor ceiling as opposed the behind the roof tiles? i.e. in the 'floor' of the loft?

    Why would it be necessary to take external insulation 1m below ground level?

    We are planning to insulate below the floor boards on the ground floor, though the kitchen has a solid concrete floor so won't be able to do that.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2007
     
    Where you do have solid floors it is a very good idea to insulate down below ground -- the house will be warmer ( see thread on U values of solid floors)

    Also a great idea to insulate under the floors. Make sure that no wind or air can get from into the house from under the floor.

    Ref loft -- as soon as you put a floor in it and insulate it then it is considered as a loft conversion so must have compliant stairs, means of escape ventilation etc etc.

    Hopefully the inspector will be nice to you ask him lots of questions and he should help you.
  1.  
    Just to add that by putting cork tiles on your solid concrete floor you instantly get pretty good insulation there. Use a natural latex adhesive underneath and hard oil on top to allow floor to breathe. Very nice on feet on cold mornings!
    • CommentAuthorkrishna
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2007 edited
     
    Any suggestions for someone to install external wall insulation to a single terraced house? All the companies in INCA seem to be too large to bother with tackling a small project. We are in North London
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2007
     
    Local builder or plasterer should be capable. Fix insulation then a render support mesh and render (lime?) with the usual details to heads of openings and bell-cast at the bottom. Include movement joints in big panels and at weak points like under windows. Even possible to DIY.
    • CommentAuthorkrishna
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2008
     
    Making slow progress on our project. Steep learning curve.

    Question about roof insulation.

    We are thinking of putting the boiler and thermal store in the loft, so it would seem to make sense to insulate along the roof pitch, rather than horizontally. Is the lack of roofing felt going to be a problem here? Do we have to strip the tiles off the roof or is there another way to deal with this? I was planning to use Celotex or Kingspan.

    What I understand so far:
    We will need to leave a 50mm gap above the insulation and a gap over the roof ridge to allow for air circulation. Correct?

    Planning to install a roof window. Most probably Fakro triple-glazed. Presumably we need to carry the insulation round the edge of the frame? i.e. between window frame and tiles, under the flashing?

    Now to the wall insulation
    We are planning to build a single storey rear extension, so the external wall insulation will have to wait until that is built. However, there is some work that is going to affect the walls. Moving bathroom from rear to front of house, so there will be some new pipework. Also want to get the gas and electricity meters moved outside. Should we place a thick board, or some such thing behind the meter boxes to prepare for this? Clearly we don't know exactly what the depth will be but I guess we could overestimate and replace with a thinner board later. Also What do we do about the pipe entry points?
    • CommentAuthorkrishna
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2008
     
    Another query regarding insulating our walls externally. This is a mid-terrace property. The roofline to the south is straight across to the neighbouring house; to the north, the roof drops about 8 inches. I guess this means we can't insulate that bit of space since otherwise it would mean encroaching on our neighbour's property.

    When looking at the elevation, the walls are flush with the property to the north, but the neighbouring house to the south is offset by about 10 inches. So again, I guess this means we can't insulate that bit of wall. Is this going to cause a problem?

    I'm thinking of insulating with between 100 and 150mm Kingspan with render on top, if we are allowed to do that.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2008
     
    You may not need to worry about the roof bit as it is likely above the level of the loft insulation?

    The bit of wall would be best insulated so long as you can agree it with the neighbour even 65mm of pur board.

    Hope the project works out ok for you.
    • CommentAuthorkrishna
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2008
     
    Hi Tony. Thanks, as ever, for your response. Any comment on the questions in the post before the one you answered?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2008
     
    I would not put the boiler in the loft! Think about a combi? and fit it in the house easily accessible, its heat loss is your gain. Cheaper too.

    Also be careful that you dont do a 'quiet' loft conv and get caught -- heavy fine or cant sell house etc
    • CommentAuthorkrishna
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2008
     
    We intend to fit solar HW panels in a year or two (and pos wood burning stove too). That was the reason for the thermal store. Putting boiler in loft was plumber's idea, but perhaps you are right, we ought to try to accommodate elsewhere. I thought if we insulated at roof rafter level we might be able to preserve any heat losses from boiler within the house, but I suppose it's not going to be terribly effective, since it is at the top of the house. I guess same applies to thermal store too, which is a pain because they are big!

    Take your point about the loft conversion. There is no chance of us trying to do that. Roof pitch is only 1.7m. Insulation, window, boarding loft, is all on my application to buildings control anyway. So all above board.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 14th 2008
     
    Great. It is technically very difficult and time consuming to insulate up and down the roof slopes but it can be done.

    Solar hot water is a good idea but the wood burner could be contentious especially in a town/city centre location but I am very anti wood burning.
  2.  
    Tony says
    It is technically very difficult and time consuming to insulate up and down the roof slopes but it can be done.
    What does this mean?
    I have rooms in my roof space, soon to include a bathroom. I have stripped back to the rafters and find that the slate roof is lined (directly below the slates and above the rafters) with bituminised felt. This allows draughts of air to come in where the pieces of felt overlap, but is otherwise impermeable. The rafters are only 70mm deep. The head height is restricted and I want to lower it as little as possible. There is no room for ceilings except in the centre under the roof ridge, so that large areas of sloping roof need to be insulated. Any contributions as to how best to do this would be gratefully received. Would condensation be a problem, given the bituminised felt? Please specify combination of airgap, rigid/non rigid insulation, membrane, foil etc etc that might be effective while taking up minimum depth.
    Many many thanks
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2008
     
    To best practice or building regs? You may regret doing without these in the future.

    50mm air gap, 25mm pur/foil insulation between rafters, 100mm pur/foil insulation under the rafters, vapour/air barrier linings.
  3.  
    Thank you Tony. So in theory between rafters that means there will be two layers of pur/foil insulation (25mm + 100mm)? Doesn't the foil act as a vapour/air barrier? Can't do without building regs. Would expect best practice to meet these (and more). Re the 25mm part below 50mm air gap, actually my rafters are only 72mm deep at best, some less than 70mm. This is beginning to make my brain hurt and I am ready to give up, though reluctant to let my builders do as they will without understanding....
    I should say that two of the rafters have rotted at the bottom ends of the slope. I wondered whether this could be due to condensation running down them within a previously unventilated space (behind the old lath and plaster lining, now removed), but this could have happened before the bituminised (bitumenised) felt was added...
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2008
     
    Rot more likely caused by roof not being watertight (broken/missing slates). 20mm + 100mm of insulation?
  4.  
    Thank you again Tony. Incidentally, Building Control has said that they don't mind what we do on the slopes, since the roof structure has not been altered (we are in a Conservation area). In the centre, where there is some ceiling, they stipulate 300mm Rockwool or similar. My builders have suggested "Acoustic wool"? or some such (it's cheaper). I don't mind spending money, as long as it is worthwhile....Feeling a bit weak this a.m.
    • CommentAuthorskywalker
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2008
     
    Keviin.

    Acoustic stuff is, I think, not as good an insulator as thermal stuff (this could be nonsense but picked it up somewhere) so you may need a slightly thicker layer to get the same result.

    S.
  5.  
    SKywalker - yes. I am sure you are right about the Acoustic wool - cheaper not often better (or as good).
    Tony - I assume that in my situation the air gap is not critical i.e. anything between 25 and 50mm will do (for places where the rafters are shallowest and/or bitumenised felt sags down a bit.)
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2008
     
    You should aim at 50mm but ok for it to be 25 min in places not too often.
  6.  
    Tony - so glad you are there. Please clarify good/not so good properties of my waterproof felt...
    In your earlier reply to mama, on the subject of breathable membrane (under tiles/over rafters) you say
    "Whatever you do, tape the joins".
    1. Why must breathable membrane joins be taped.
    Is it to try to create a layer of still air which adds to the insulation?
    2. I assume that my felt is not "breathable". Is this correct?
    If so what effect does that have?
    3. Is non-breathability compensated for by the fact that the joins are not taped and let in draughts? Or are draughts in any situation a bad thing.
    i.e. Will the draughts below my felt detract significantly from insulation provided by rigid foam between the rafters. - I wouldn't have thought so. I doubt it is feasible to seal the joins in this felt - and is it even desirable?
    4. I presume that no water vapour can penetrate through to the air gap from inside once the rigid foam/foil backed insulation board is in place between and over the rafters.
    Please put me straight.
    5.Lastly, where there is an area of ceiling and I have been told to put 300mm Rockwool or similar, will the draughts above this significantly reduce the effect of the insulation. Should there be some sort of draughtproof layer/membrane on top? Or is the thickness sufficient to compensate for "forced convection"?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2008
     
    I dont see you changing the under Slater's felt? That would virtually mean re roofing.

    So it is OK to keep so long as you have the 50mm air ventilation space we have talked about.

    Breathable felt makes horrid noises if you dont tape the joints, but they need taping to make it work properly too.

    Your felt is not breathable

    Draughts in the void will not significantly detract so long as wind cant get the wrong side of it all and there are no gaps misses or cracks.

    Use a vapour barrier to ensure no vapour can get out, taping the joins is a faff and not so good as a sheet of thin polythene.

    Use the same insulation in the ceiling it is only small anyway?
  7.  
    Tony - you are a star. Yes. Would like to use the same insulation in ceiling, but wonder if OK now that building control have said 300mm Rockwool....
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2008
     
    it will be
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeJan 22nd 2008 edited
     
    Posted By: tony
    Breathable felt makes horrid noises if you dont tape the joints, but they need taping to make it work properly too.



    I make sure the overlap works so that a batten traps the bottom edge of the felt over the piece below. I haven't heard of tape for this, what do you use?
  8.  
    I have very rapidly become an insulation bore - but I guess this is as good a place as any to go on and on....
    It is so helpful to have access to other people's thoughts and experience (if they choose to answer).

    In my attic rooms, under the pitch of the roof, I am beginning to think that I must put 75-100mm insulation below the rafters (I was hoping to get away with 50mm, or less). How much is the warmth noticeably increased for each 10mm of insulation I wonder - or are other factors, e.g. draughts far more important?f Is it worth also insulating the low sections of outer wall - or far more important to double-glaze/draughtproof windows? (There will also be a skylight in the roof).
    With an insulated plasterboard incorporating a vapour barrier, the barrier will obviously not be continuous where the boards butt together at the rafters. Is it better to have a polythene sheet between an outer layer of PUR/foil and normal plasterboard? The sheet will have to be punctured at attachment points, won't it, but will be squashed against the rafters by the plasterboard which will grip its screws tightly so that nothing can get through(?)

    Tony says a thin sheet of polythene is better than taping the joints....
    Maybe the answer is that joints have to be taped if an insulated plasterboard is used, but not if a polythene layer is placed between the underrafter layer of PUR/foil and the plasterboard. Hope Tony replies to Mike George.

    Could it be better to put the polythene between the two layers of insulation, before the underrafter layer is attached. Why is the inner layer of insulation foil-backed, I wonder.

    I have to stop wind from above - coming through the Slaters' felt and down the edges of the rafters (where inevitably in some places the between-rafter insulation will not fit quite snugly) and "vapour" from below, including clouds of steam from baths and showers.... How difficult/vital can this be.
    NB the rafters are shallowest (less than 70mm) and the roof height lowest in the proposed bathroom.
    Must remember the mantra: any insulation is better than none.
    Hm. Must stop musing and take ACTION
    Regards to all. I'll be back....
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 23rd 2008
     
    I try never to use breathable felts as they are so expensive!

    Did have a problem with noise when the wind blew through the overlap of the 'felt' and turned it into reed like in a clarinet!

    Never taped the joins though. joining under a batten sounds like a good idea but often they specify counter-battens or draped.

    I think they do supply tape at a price for joins and one lot has self adhesive edge I think.
    • CommentAuthorspinkox
    • CommentTimeFeb 6th 2009
     
    Hello Kevinwatcher - I have exactly the same problem as you - 70mm thick rafters and trying to insulate to a high standard but reducing head height as little as possible. Im trying to get some information together before going to chat with Building Control.

    If I have understood it correctly the thinnest system I have found is a Celotex system with 50mm between rafters, 65 over, 25mm battens to give an air gap then plasterboard. To get my 50mm ventilation I will have to make the rafters deeper by fixing battens below them. Seems awfully complicated. I think I was expecting some sort of super material that would solve this more simply - and thinner.

    Anybody got any better ideas??
   
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