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General: Protecting insulation below ground level from vermin

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  1.  
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2013 edited
     
    What length should we be going to to protect insulation below ground level from vermin? AECB, for instance, have a detail where they show a concrete paver on edge up against EWI below ground level.

    Attached is a detail I'm working on that incorporates this but I have the added problem of a void underneath the insulation due to the structural design (a suspended raft slab).

    Do you think this void, and hence access to the underside of the floor insulation, poses a problem with regard to vermin? How tempted would little creatures be tempted to burrow into some warm EPS I wonder?

    And if I need to protect it do you have any suggestions? Some kind of board pinned with the rods to the underside perhaps?
  2.  
    I saw something about this on this very forum - search for "passive house" in topics - there's a discussion there about rats, rabbits etc. IIRC if your building is in a vulnerable spot (rural, agricultural) most things don't work, including concrete, apparently! But some people found steel mesh or wire wool effective.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2013 edited
     
    Thanks Milk. We're urban but we do have fair amount of garden/wooded space behind us.

    Close knit mesh is great idea. Cheap too. Only problem is steel would eventually rust living in such a damp air void.

    Think you mean this one:
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=9824
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2013 edited
     
    Sheesh, just read through that thread. Seems like I've got a real potential problem with this detail. We certainly have mice/rats about that would give it a go.

    If only there were some kind of super-strong rust-proof mesh available?

    Perhaps one method would be to go down a metre deep with the concrete pavers around the perimeter (11 m in my case)? Problem with this is that gaps would no doubt open between the pavers, plus something will probably dig 1 m down eventually.
  5.  
    S/S expanded metal?
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2013 edited
     
    I think even stainless steel will eventually rot, given that it'll be a damp air void with oxygen.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 15th 2013 edited
     
    Perhaps the fact that it will be damp will actually work to our favour. Rodents will be looking for warm and dry places to hang out, not damp. On the other hand perhaps the EPS will stay dry suspended above the ground.

    40 mm Foamglas bottom layer perhaps?
  8.  
    Posted By: ShevekI think even stainless steel will eventually rot, given that it'll be a damp air void with oxygen.


    Actually, this was in another discussion here as well. It's oxygen that prevents SS from corroding, forming a layer of chromium or something at the surface. SS would be expensive though.

    If I coudn't afford SS I'd take my chances with galv wire mesh, perhaps increasing the galv layer by spraying with galv spray (standard item in any electrical wholesalers).
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013
     
    Another suggestion that came up, was to backfill the trench with something inhospitable, like Leca. That would immediuaTELY COLLAPSE INTO ANY TUNNEL THAT (sorry caps) was dug. Someone even suggested mixing broken glass in with it!
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013
     
    How about carbon fibre mesh? :wink:
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: Milk_No_SugarActually, this was in another discussion here as well. It's oxygen that prevents SS from corroding, forming a layer of chromium or something at the surface. SS would be expensive though.

    Would cost us £234 for the amount we need:
    http://www.meshdirect.co.uk/Stainless-Mesh-6mm-x-6mm-1-4-inch-x-1-4-inch-Holes-c-116.html
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013 edited
     
    According to price list linked to on this thread a layer of 40 mm Foamglas wall board (W+F) would cost us £250.92:
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=10314

    Think I'd be more inclined to go with the Foamglas than the stainless steel given that the Foamglas is guaranteed not to degrade. Although attaching 1200 x 600 sheets to the underside of our suspended slab will be a bit of a mission.
  13.  
    As I posted on prev threads, I have learned there is no manmade barrier that mice cannot overcome during the lifecycle of the buildings. In our case this included 600mm granite walls. We are surrounded by fields.

    I would start with an expectation that mice will get in, and choose material s that they are less inclined to shred. Eg rockwool seems less chewable than PS.

    For EWI, remember that mice climb and get in above ground level as well as below. I'd use a band of mouse resist ing material round the lower part of the walls, say for the first 30 feet.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013
     
    It does happen, this is recent mouse attack of my wing insulation now stopped
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013
     
    So what about
    Posted By: fostertomLeca. That would immediuaTELY COLLAPSE INTO ANY TUNNEL THAT (sorry caps) was dug
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013
     
    I don't know. Somehow a bit of leca collapse doesn't sound like much of a foe for a rodent that has the patience to make its way through a 600 mm stone wall.
  17.  
    Can you build in such a way that any damage caused is accessible and repairable (in addition to some kind of barrier)? I guess with footings and foundations, that's nigh on impossible...
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013
     
    Posted By: Milk_No_SugarCan you build in such a way that any damage caused is accessible and repairable (in addition to some kind of barrier)? I guess with footings and foundations, that's nigh on impossible...

    Yeah, I was thinking about a webcam though. At least then I could show other people what could happen, ha!
    • CommentAuthorJonti
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013
     
    As already stated on the other thread, I have found broken tiles and glass to be very effective as the mice don't seem to like getting cut. Also, make sure you have an AREA OF 1M PLUS ALL AROUND THE HOUSE WHICH OFFER NO COVER. MICE HATE BEING OUT IN THE OPEN.

    Jonti
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013
     
    So compact a 50 mm layer of broken glass as a subbase and then lay our sand blinding?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013
     
    I dont like sand blinding, it trickles through the gaps and the floor goes down, I call it a blinding error, GBM article/letter in the 1990's
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 16th 2013 edited
     
    In my case though it's not a ground-bearing slab, but a suspended raft. The 25 mm sand blinding is just a base for the Clayboard.

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/?PostBackAction=Download&AttachmentID=3847
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 18th 2013
     
    Posted By: ShevekSo compact a 50 mm layer of broken glass as a subbase and then lay our sand blinding?

    If you lay sand blinding on top, the mice won't be able to feel your broken glass just as the clayboard doesn't! Especially if you then put some polythene on top and some nice degraded soggy cardboard (i.e. clayboard) that they can walk on and chew and make into nests etc.

    So probably best to keep them out, or perhaps try leaving some poison bait down there.

    Perhaps ask Dufaylite if they know what works?
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeMar 18th 2013 edited
     
    The idea of putting in the ground is to discourage them from burrowing in from underneath. See detail here: http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=10330

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