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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013
     
    Generally it can't if it is cellular. Air may be replaced with a different gas though and that may be less conductive than air.
    Vacuum gets around it.

    If air movement happens then your into a different calculation, why shape is also important.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013
     
    Aerogel, better than 0.0241 but full of nothing but air? graphited EPS? Multifoil, actually better than it should be, even if not as good as claimed?
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013 edited
     
    All these insulants are basically ways of immobilising air and preventing convection.

    Perhaps the U value for air refers to free air and assumes some convection, though I have no idea how you can do that and obtain a consistent U value. U value calculations are appropriate for conduction only, and if you bring in convection (free air) or radiation (multifoil) you won't get consistent results.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013
     
    Isn't there an intrinsic amount of resistance when heat moves from material to material (or between gasses and solids?)? I think of it as a sort of impedance mismatch. Could that account for higher resistances in bubbly stuff? Small bubble gives lots of interfaces along the path.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013
     
    Posted By: fostertomAerogel, better than 0.0241 but full of nothing but air?

    Has to do with getting the cell size smaller than the distance that air molecules travel before bashing into another one. Sadly, I don't remember the precise reason, only that there is a real one.

    graphited EPS?

    Doesn't have a conductivity less than 0.024 AFAIK.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013
     
    Posted By: djh
    graphited EPS?
    Doesn't have a conductivity less than 0.024 AFAIK.
    I know, but it's a better insulator than it should be.
    Posted By: djhSadly, I don't remember the precise reason, only that
    it's to do with graphite being v ready to absorb heat out of the air into the solid, and that it works curiously similar to multifoil, which rejects same!
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013
     
    Posted By: djhSadly, I don't remember the precise reason,


    I think the idea is that fast-moving (hot) molecules bounce off a cell wall before before they can carry their energy very far.

    At atmospheric pressure the mean free path of air molecules is only 68nm (Wikipedia), a fraction of the wavelength of light. Only in materials like aerogel, which have an invisibly fine-grained porous structure, will many molecules hit the solid matrix before they hit another gas molecule.

    In coarser materials most collisions will be with other gas molecules. But momentum will be transferred, and the next molecule will be knocked in the same general direction. So it still helps to put something in the way which is sufficiently rigid and massive to bounce 'hot' molecules back the way they came. That, I think, is why coarser, foam-type materials can still achieve conductivities below that of free air.

    All the above refers only to conduction, i.e. heat transfer by random molecular motion. Insulants additionally suppress convection, where heat is transferred by bulk movement of air.
    • CommentAuthorSaint
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2013
     
    Rhamdu,thanks that's pretty much what I remember about the explanation for aerogel. There are the three basic mechanisms for heat transfer. In a layer of still air there's obviously not much convection. In aerogel and to an extent graphite enhanced ESP there is a reduction in radiation by the use of opacificiers Additionally in aerogel there's so little mass there's not much lost by conduction. Who says air is the best insulant? The blowing agents in phenolic (0.020) and PIR (0.023) would indicate otherwise
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: rhamdurefers only to conduction, i.e. heat transfer by random molecular motion. Insulants additionally suppress convection
    What about insulants that suppress internal radiation (multifoils), or ones that encourage the radiant portion of the heat flow to get absorbed into solids (graphited) and/or 'lost' in maze-like solids (aerogel)?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013
     
    Why shape is important, an air molecule bouncing around a cube will dissipate heat quicker than one in a sphere I think, may be the other way around. All to do with the likelihood of hitting 'a wall' at 90°. Then there is the surface to volume ratio, which affects the thermal inertia (have I ever mentioned that).
    Don't think there is any magic to be found here though, the measured value is what it is.:wink:
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013
     
    Posted By: SaintWho says air is the best insulant?

    Not me, guvnor. The higher the molecular mass of the gas, the less heat it transfers. So argon is better than air in double glazing, and krypton is better still.

    The blowing agents in phenolic and PIR typically start with four or five carbon atoms (already twice the molecular mass of O2 or N2) and weigh the molecule down with as much fluorine and chlorine as the ozone layer will tolerate. Good point, Saint, this answers how these materials outperform air.
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013
     
    Posted By: fostertomWhat about insulants that suppress internal radiation (multifoils), or ones that encourage the radiant portion of the heat flow to get absorbed into solids (graphited) and/or 'lost' in maze-like solids (aerogel)?

    I'm sure the insulating effects are real, but once radiation is involved you can no longer treat a build-up as a set of simple thermal resistances in series. Greater minds than mine have no doubt found ways to model these materials.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013
     
    Posted By: rhamduThe higher the molecular mass of the gas, the less heat it transfers. So argon is better than air in double glazing, and krypton is better still.
    Isn't that about stopping convection, though?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: Ed Davies
    Posted By: rhamduThe higher the molecular mass of the gas, the less heat it transfers. So argon is better than air in double glazing, and krypton is better still.
    Isn't that about stopping convection, though?

    Shame on you, Ed! Wikipedia Thermal conductivity 17.72x10-3 W·m−1·K−1
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMar 25th 2013
     
    Well yes, vs air at 24x10⁻³ W·m⁻¹·K⁻¹ so quite a bit better. My understanding, though, was that the heavier gasses were less likely to convect so you could have a thicker gap. However, looking around the descriptions I can find are pretty muddled. Still, it seems like I had the wrong end of the stick - the better resistance to conduction of the heavy monatomic gasses allows, for a given amount of conduction, a thinner gap hence less problem with convection.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2013
     
    What's the u-value of Icynene?
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeJul 18th 2013
     
    U-value depends on thickness (OK, it's late).

    Link to BBA certificate at bottom of this page:

    http://www.icynenesprayfoam.co.uk/icynene-classic-spray-foam-ld-c-50/

    Says conductivity is 0.039 W·m⁻¹·K⁻¹
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