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    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeApr 7th 2013
     
    So what are the best (and best value) water-saving loos out there at the mo?

    There's the IFO Cera ES4 (4/2.7 L):
    http://www.greenbuildingstore.co.uk/page--es4-features.html
    Advantages being leak-free siphon flush and an inlet valve that delays refilling into flush is finished (although this can't be used with rainwater)

    There's the cheaper Twyford Sola Rimless (4/2.6 L)
    http://www.twyfordbathrooms.com/Suites/Suites/Sola.aspx
    Advantages being easy clean rimless edge, cheaper than the ES4.

    There's the Propelair 1.5 litre pnematic flush loo, which isn't available yet:
    http://www.propelair.com/

    Anything else out there worth considering?

    Anyone know if you can get a dual squat/sitting toilet (low-flush)?
    • CommentAuthorGaryB
    • CommentTimeApr 7th 2013 edited
     
    Roca 'The Gap' 4/2 litre flush. Pricing is not far away from the Twyfords.

    Try Alibaba for squatting WCs and variants - lots of information from Turkish firms on there, essential for specifying in the Middle East.
  1.  
    The IFo might have change design but a relatives experience was that a single flush did not clear the pan and the very small amount of water in the pan was prone to allowing smells through from the drains.

    Twyford Rimfree 3D is on my list at the moment.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeApr 7th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: Simon StillTwyford Rimfree 3D is on my list at the moment.

    Ah I see, do they have a rimless for each range?

    Shame the Twyford doesn't have a siphon flush. Can we expect the valve flush on the Twyford to leak after a certain period as the siphon advocates argue?
    • CommentAuthorGaryB
    • CommentTimeApr 7th 2013
     
    I've 2 valve flush WCs, one 10 years old and one 8. Never replaced a valve yet.
  2.  
    I think there are only two in the Rimfree at the moment.

    The valve flushes on our toilets haven't leaked in 10 years (one does if the button sticks down but it's possible for siphons to flow continuously as well). If its a house you live in and maintain I think you'd spot it. In rented housing you might need to worry more.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeApr 7th 2013 edited
     
    Person who did this video says the Twyford rimless block easily:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BofAJ8Vr6eo
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeApr 8th 2013 edited
     
    Ideal Standard Wall Hungs with 4/2.6 flush seem to come in about £100 cheaper than other options.

    Am I right in saying the 3D rimfree comes only with 6/4 flush?
  3.  
    Ideal standard also do rimless toilets.

    Define "best" in your original post. Most modern toilets seem to be a triumph of design over function - a low volume flush isn't very successful if you need to use it twice or to physically clean the toilet after each use due to the shape.
    • CommentAuthorRobinB
    • CommentTimeApr 8th 2013 edited
     
    How about the Japanese ones where the handwash water is save ready for the next flush? Would be interested if anyone actually finds a UK supplier.

    http://www.treehugger.com/bathroom-design/wash-your-hands-with-toilet-water.html

    Mind you I'm sure I'd only use about 1 litre for an average hand wash. Kids however seem to use load or none at all.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeApr 8th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: Simon StillIdeal standard also do rimless toilets.

    Define "best" in your original post. Most modern toilets seem to be a triumph of design over function - a low volume flush isn't very successful if you need to use it twice or to physically clean the toilet after each use due to the shape.

    Agreed, there's got to be a huge market out there for people that just want a simple looking low-flush toilet that does what it says on the tin.

    My definition of best:
    - Value for money.
    - Low maintenance.
    - Low water use, preferably ultra-low, but also does what it says on the tin.
    - Easy to clean
    - Looks good = simple lines, well-mannered proportions. Which rules out the vast majority it seems to me.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 8th 2013
     
    If you choose a design with a concealed cistern (either back-to-wall or wall-hung) then you can buy the cistern separately with a siphon flush.

    Dudley are well-known for supplying siphon flush mechanisms.

    My definition of best (order is a bit different):
    - Easy to clean
    - Low maintenance.
    - Comfortable to use = not a bizarre shape or height
    - Looks good = simple lines, well-mannered proportions.
    - Sweeps solids effectively and only needs flushing once
    - Low water use, preferably ultra-low, but also does what it says on the tin.
    - Value for money.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeApr 8th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: djhIf you choose a design with a concealed cistern (either back-to-wall or wall-hung) then you can buy the cistern separately with a siphon flush. Dudley are well-known for supplying siphon flush mechanisms.

    Okay great. Do you know if Dudley do a 4/2.6 dual flush siphon?

    So there are no compatibility issues to worry about?
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeApr 8th 2013 edited
     
    Found this one that says it's a dual flush, but it also says it's 6 litre and doesn't say what the dual flush is.
    http://www.thomasdudley.co.uk/phantom.asp
  4.  
    I think I would like the cistern to be insulated on the inside, especially if it was behind a wall.
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeApr 8th 2013
     
    Posted By: ShevekFound this one that says it's a dual flush, but it also says it's 6 litre and doesn't say what the dual flush is.
    http://www.thomasdudley.co.uk/phantom.asp" rel="nofollow" >http://www.thomasdudley.co.uk/phantom.asp


    GBS ship a slightly customised Dudley Phantom with the ES4. You could call Dudley and see if they'll supply you a 4/2.5 flush adaptor widget for a Turbo88 (it's a small piece of plastic with a couple of 12mm-or-so holes in - which slides into the side of the Turbo88 - I just drilled a hole in the 6l / 3l one instead).

    In the process of fitting a Phantom, along with a Twyford Alcona Back-to-wall (£88 +VAT). I got the Phantom for £30-odd on eBay. A similar delayed-fill valve from the same manufacturer as the GBS one is available from Toolstation for £10 (although there's not really much benefit with a syphon flush as far as I can see?). Wooden seat from Ikea for £10.

    I've put the Phantom higher up than GBS recommended for the ES4 (in an effort to give the flush a bit more welly) - I've only done a couple of test-flushes as-yet, but it seems to be OK (doesn't splash).
  5.  
    My definition of best (again order is a bit different):
    - Looks good = simple lines, well-mannered proportions.
    - Sweeps solids effectively and only needs flushing once
    - Comfortable to use = not a bizarre shape or height
    - Easy to clean (less of an issue if successful in 2 above)
    - Low water use, preferably ultra-low, but also does what it says on the tin.
    - Low maintenance. (Not sure I've ever had a toilet that wasn't?)
    - Value for money.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeApr 10th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: TimSmallYou could call Dudley and see if they'll supply you a 4/2.5 flush adaptor widget for a Turbo88 (it's a small piece of plastic with a couple of 12mm-or-so holes in - which slides into the side of the Turbo88 - I just drilled a hole in the 6l / 3l one instead).

    Won't that come with the Turbo 88 if we order it along with the Phantom?

    A similar delayed-fill valve from the same manufacturer as the GBS one is available from Toolstation for £10

    By the looks of their website you can get one from Dudley called the Hydroflo.

    http://www.thomasdudley.co.uk/phantom.asp
    http://www.thomasdudley.co.uk/hydroflo.asp
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeApr 10th 2013 edited
     
    Do you think the Twyford Gallerie will work fine with a 4/2.6 Dudley Phantom?
    http://www.twyfordbathrooms.com/Suites/Suites/Galerie/WCs/Wall%20Hung/gn1798.aspx

    Of note is the fact that the normal one with a rim comes standard with a 4/2.6 flush but the rimless above comes with 6/4.
    http://www.twyfordbathrooms.com/Suites/Suites/Galerie/WCs/Wall%20Hung/gn1718.aspx
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeAug 3rd 2013 edited
     
    I've had a Twyford Alcona installed for a few months now, for the cistern I used a Dudley Phantom, installed about 200mm higher than the syphon was on my Ifo ES4 (I'll get some exact dimensions if I remember).

    So far the results are pretty good - about £150 for the whole set up and I've not had to double flush it once. I've just started to use the half-flush for everything, and I haven't yet had to double-flush when doing this.

    It's not a completely fair comparison (due to the difference in cistern height), but the Alcona seems to perform a lot better than the Ifo ES4 - which frequently fails to clear on the second flush, and about once per month I end up chucking a large jug full of water down at the same time as I do a full flush. My impression is that most of the difference is due to the shape of the U-bend between the different models.


    If anyone want to try and replicate this set up it is:

    1x Twyford Alcona back-to-wall pan (~£80)
    1x Dudley Phantom with Turbo 88 - (7" / 178mm version for 4/2 flushing) (~£30)
    1x Ikea oak Toilet seat (£8)
    1x course, and 1x fine abrasive sponge pad (I already had these, but about £0.5 each).

    One of the links from:

    http://joneakes.com/jons-fixit-database/1167-The-low-flush-toilet-controversy-MaP-toilet-testing

    said that one early manufacturing problem they found with North American manufacturers - which the testing organisation found harmed the performance considerably - was with glaze not continuing around the U bend.

    The glaze isn't continuous on the Alcona which I bought - there was exposed rough vitreous china, with some sharp / rough beads of glaze out-of-sight round the bend, so I sanded the whole area down using the sponge pad prior to fitting the pan. I don't know how much difference this will make, but I think it's definitely worth the 5 minutes it takes to do (BTW, someone with big hands might find this difficult!).

    Here are a couple of links to related threads...

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/post.php?CommentID=181164

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=2570&page=3

    If anyone can recommend a well made (and not too expensive) concealed valve flush alternative, I'd be interested to know - I'm thinking of trying the wall-hung version of the Alcona in the en-suite upstairs, and might not have space to fit the siphon+lever flush option.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeAug 4th 2013
     
    Posted By: TimSmallI've had a Twyford Alcona installed for a few months now, for the cistern I used a Dudley Phantom

    That's good practical information, thanks Tim. I think I'd be in trouble because of the horizontal surface with the screws - extra cleaning work generally meets with disapproval.
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeAug 5th 2013
     
    Both cisterns are in cupboards (one in the under-stairs cupboard, and one in a slender storage cupboard in the bathroom itself) - so no extra horizontal surfaces on display (in fact one less in each case - since the top of cistern doesn't need cleaning). I should post some pictures once the floor is finished...
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeAug 5th 2013
     
    Sorry, I meant the design at the base of the pan, where it's shaped to form lugs with screws going through vertically down. Designs with the screws going horizontally are preferred.
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeAug 5th 2013
     
    Posted By: TimSmallI'm thinking of trying the wall-hung version of the Alcona in the en-suite upstairs


    I've now abandoned this idea, because the U bend seems to be a lot more 'V' shaped, and less 'U' shaped in the wall-hung version of the Alcona (that's how it looks in the drawings, and the person who I spoke to on the phone at Twyfords seemed to think that was the case too). I'll use another 'Back to wall' variant instead.
  6.  
    Have modified my existing toilet to use rain water - it would be nice to find a cistern with a 22mm input so I can pump fewer times and have less of a pressure difference on the 25mm plastic pipe and 15mm copper inlet. - has anyone ever seen on?

    http://www.tombuild.com/www.tombuild.com/water_saving.html

    cheers
    Tom
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeAug 6th 2013
     
    It's more to do in the valve I would think - you'd want a 1/2" low pressure type valve like this:

    http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plumbing/Toilet+Fittings/Float+Valve+Part+1+12+Low+Pressure/d20/sd2835/p31280

    If you go for a 'back to wall' design, then you can hide a plastic "concealed cistern" in a cupboard behind the WC, and widen out the hole to accept a larger valve if necessary (you might need to brace the incoming pipe if you make the hole larger). Concealed cisterns from about £25 for push button, or £35 dual-flush siphon on eBay etc.
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeAug 6th 2013
     
    BTW, has anyone tried the "Interflush" device for syphon flushes?

    http://www.interflush.co.uk/products/interflush-kit/

    ... it interrupts the siphon (by letting air in at the top - and so stopping flushing) when the lever is released.

    Reason I'm interested is that you seem to be able to readily pick up 'Dudley Phantom' concealed cisterns at about the £30 to £35 mark on eBay. These are designed to be a 6/3 flush, with an 8" / 203mm Dudley Turbo 88.

    They ship as single-flush, but have instructions to convert to 6/3 dual flush.


    There are then 3 different ways to get the flush down from 6/3:

    1. Buy a 7" / 178mm Dudley Turbo 88 and stick that in the cistern, but it'll add an extra £25 or so to the bill, and I was wondering if the interflush might be a better idea - allowing you to stick with the original 203mm turbo 88, but make it a 4/whatever (you can then use the original 8" Turbo 88 as source of spare parts to service the other one in future).

    2. Drill out a ~10mm hole in the removable flush adjuster side plate near the top - this'll convert it to roughly 4.5/3.

    3. If you stick (e.g. butyl tape) a couple of the square-profile 2-pint plastic milk bottles in the cistern (with a 3mm hole drilled near the bottom, so the water inside the milk bottles doesn't go mouldy), you can get this down to roughly 4/2.5 - works but doesn't look that professional...



    So I was wondering about the Interflush as an alternative - then you could then leave the siphon in single-flush mode, and with the interflush it'd turn into a 4.5-0.5 variable flush...
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeAug 6th 2013
     
    Posted By: tombuild.comHave modified my existing toilet to use rain water - it would be nice to find a cistern with a 22mm input so I can pump fewer times and have less of a pressure difference on the 25mm plastic pipe and 15mm copper inlet. - has anyone ever seen on?

    http://www.tombuild.com/www.tombuild.com/water_saving.html

    Looks a lot like what I'm planning, except I'm thinking of pumping up to a 40 or 50 L tank near the roof and filling the cisterns by gravity from that. The idea being that I'll only need to pump once a day to top up the tank. And there'll only be one mains supply backup gubbins.
    • CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeAug 6th 2013
     
    Posted By: TimSmallSo I was wondering about the Interflush as an alternative - then you could then leave the siphon in single-flush mode, and with the interflush it'd turn into a 4.5-0.5 variable flush...

    It'll be a 6-0.5 variable flush, won't it?

    Seems like a good idea, but I don't think I've ever come across one in the wild. It also requires operator training, since the default method of using a normal WC (i.e. press and release the handle) will result in a very small flush and embarrassed users. Once you're aware of the idea, it does seem more logical that you hold to keep it flushing rather than some alternatives where you flush and release for a full one and flush and hold for a half.
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeAug 6th 2013
     
    Posted By: djhIt'll be a 6-0.5 variable flush, won't it?


    Not if I drill that 10mm hole in the flush adjuster plate (just below the upper reach of the diaphragm) as above, than then stops the flush at 4.5 litres.


    Seems like a good idea, but I don't think I've ever come across one in the wild. It also requires operator training, since the default method of using a normal WC (i.e. press and release the handle) will result in a very small flush and embarrassed users


    Hmm, hopefully it'll not cause too many problems... It comes with a little instruction sticker, but I think my learned response to a non-functioning siphon is to give it a bit of a quicker crank, and hold down for a bit (I guess that letting go straight away breaks a marginal siphon - so I've learned to do that) so maybe guests would just try that first.
   
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