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Housing - New Build: Ventilation Testing - Part F

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  1.  
    I'm compiling some research into domestic ventilation testing but apart from BSRIA there doesn't seem to be a whole load of companies promoting the service. Does anybody know of any other firms that do it? Are the installers or inspectors doing the testing perhaps?

    Thanks in advance
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2013
     
    are you talking about air tightness testing? never heard of domestic ventilation being tested!
    • CommentAuthorFred56
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2013
     
    On new build you need commissioning by someone signed up to a competent persons scheme for the HRV type systems (Part F System 4). They are controlled services. About a year or so back I looked at this and found lots of providers promoting training as a next great money making opportunity. Great thing about controlled services is you can charge lots more for your labour. Compulsion equals exploitation.

    As far as I could tell, the installers do the commissioning and testing. They then issue a certificate that is passed to Building Control in the same way as Part P and GasSafe certificates .
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2013
     
    Never even heard of it!
  5.  
    Someone on here posted recently re doing their MVHR 'ticket', I think.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2013
     
    As far as I know docmartin did two installs, his own and his daughters but he never mentioned any testing by a controlling body ?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2013
     
    Posted By: Fred56As far as I could tell, the installers do the commissioning and testing.

    I don't think that's always the case, at least for parts of the system. I think it's quite common for you, or a contractor, to install ducting as part of the general build, but then for the supplier to commission and test. Don't know about the unit itself.
    • CommentAuthordocmartin
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2013
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: joe90</cite>As far as I know docmartin did two installs, his own and his daughters but he never mentioned any testing by a controlling body ?</blockquote>

    True; my own refurb involved a small extension to a single storey offshot converted to a galley kitchen. This was done under a building notice; the BCO only made casual enquiries about the ventilation aspect and never asked for specific details.
    My daughter's extension was much larger and the bungalow was gutted with a new layout. Again, the inspection of the ventilation was very superficial with no specific data requested. This was in 2009; perhaps more information is expected now?
    • CommentAuthorsnyggapa
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2013
     
    I used these guys to design, supply and provide installation advice, then commission - we did the installation

    http://www.thebuiltenvironment.co.uk/services.htm#commissioning

    overall I was very pleased with the service

    -Steve
    • CommentAuthorGreenfish
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2013
     
    Our BC has asked for a commissioning certificate on completion, must be part of the regs. Thinking of installing MVHR ourselves, but don't know who to get to sign it off. BC could not suggest any one either. Anyone know who can do this in Cornwall area?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2013
     
    I would try signing it yourself on a fancy piece of headed paper, it is likely a buck passing exercise.
  12.  
    Thanks for the responses thus far.

    From what I have read it was made compulsory when the regs changed in October 2010 and will only apply to new builds where plans have gone in after this date. That's almost 3 years ago now so I would have thought there would be a lot more information on it.

    I agree with some that perhaps the installers/suppliers are doing the testing as it's just an easy add on to their service. Apart from that it's still only BSRIA that I can see that offer it as a separate service.

    Thanks
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2013
     
    As far as I can see Scottish regulations (Domestic 2010) only require fancy headed paper for commissioning air conditioning, not MVHR. Anybody know different? Not that I'm sure I want to know.
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2013
     
    Take a look in the domestic ventilation compliance guide - the testing proceure and requirements are in there (as identified in approved document F) - Sections 4 and 5 is what you need.

    the "checklist" is in section 5

    Regards

    Barney
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2013
     
    Posted By: Ed DaviesAs far as I can see Scottish regulations (Domestic 2010) only require fancy headed paper for commissioning air conditioning, not MVHR. Anybody know different? Not that I'm sure I want to know.
    Ah interesting. Looks like I won't do that course then! Just buy the test kit to check it out. Certainly 3.14 mentions commissioning but not any requirement for certification of the person doing it. Mentions BRE Digest 398. Any idea what that says?
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2013 edited
     
    Found it here http://ebookbrowse.com/bre-digest-398-pdf-d241650568 Amazes me that the Regs still reference a document nearly 20 years old!!!
    • CommentAuthorGreenfish
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2013
     
    One of our MVHR quotes includes £200 for commissioning the system.

    BTW having huge difficulty getting any quotes, send plans and then wait a month, and then get a bottom line with no details on what is being supplied. Multiple suppliers just not interested in the work. Getting very tempted to design and fix myself, and then worry where to get it commissioned. Reckon fancy headed paper would do it?
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeApr 30th 2013
     
    It's not the quote though really, is it - what you want is each company to do a free design for you on the vague basis that you may place an order with them.

    You don't need fancy headed paper - look at section 5 of the compliance guide - the requiremets and a copy of the relevant submission form is in there - BCO usually only want part 3 of the form

    Regards

    Barney
  19.  
    ADM Systems did a quote and drawings for me free of charge although it was four years ago.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 1st 2013
     
    Posted By: barneyIt's not the quote though really, is it - what you want is each company to do a free design for you on the vague basis that you may place an order with them.

    Is there a better way? What you want is a price, in a sense it's their problem that they need to do a design to work out the price, although they probably also need to convince you that their proposal is sensible. How else can the system work?
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeMay 1st 2013
     
    Get it designed first and then go to the market for the products - that way you have control of the design, the performance and the sensibility. That may cost a sum of money though.

    In my experience it's the lack of a design and the idea that you put your faith in contractors/suppliers to come up with the solution that leads to most of the dramas.

    Regards

    Barney
    • CommentAuthorGreenfish
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2013
     
    Posted By: barneyGet it designed first and then go to the market for the products...
    Do you see MVHR design as something I can do myself, or do I need an expert? And if an expert is needed that where do I get this independent expert advice? As a quick learner with an engineering background I think I could do my own design if I could get adequate information about the parts available, and that leads back to the manufacturers and the slowest of slow responses to anything.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2013
     
    Posted By: Greenfish
    Posted By: barneyGet it designed first and then go to the market for the products...
    Do you see MVHR design as something I can do myself, or do I need an expert? And if an expert is needed that where do I get this independent expert advice?

    I'd be interested in the answer to this, too. When I asked a supplier (who has a good reputation) they said that their paid-for design is only for the kit that they sell, because it depends on the characteristics of the products. So if there is a place to get a design that is useful independent of the products, I'd like to know where.
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2013
     
    It's a basic supply and extract system - the characteristics of the "box" are availavble from most manufacturers.

    The characteristics of different type of ducts are known or predictable

    The performance requirements are in Part F.

    Anyone with even a basic knowledge of HVAC design could design it in about 2 hours and probably do an acoustic check as well.

    Presuming you are getting someone to do some design of the heating systems etc then probably they are the best place people to do it.

    The phrase "Building Services Consultant Engineer" springs to mind - you do it for structure, why not for services.

    Regards

    Barney
    • CommentAuthorseascape
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2013
     
    Greenfish: Nearest person I have been recommended is in Bristol. Have you tried Plymouth? Seems there maybe a job opening in Cornwall commissioning mvhr systems! Or contact some local housing associations, who are doing new builds and have to get systems signed off for BC - there maybe someone local.
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2013
     
    Part F requires sign off by a competent person.

    From memory (as examples) both NICEIC and NAPIT have schemes for electrical contractors who also are competent to sign off ventilation for part F

    regards

    barney
    • CommentAuthorseascape
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2013
     
    Greenfish: Peter Warm Associates is in Plymouth.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2013 edited
     
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: barneyFrom memory (as examples) both NICEIC and NAPIT have schemes for electrical contractors who also are competent to sign off ventilation for part F
    Isn't that just on the wiring side, like a kitchen fitter, PV installer, plumber?
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeMay 2nd 2013
     
    Not really - they both run Part P schemes for electrical work.

    As an add on, and given that a lot of electricians fit fans, cooker hoods and whole house supply/extract systems they also run the comptenet person schemes for part F (they are not the only ones). Essentialy the building regs require "commissioning" of anything that is capable of being commissioned - ie anything other than basic fixed speed fans direct into or from a space

    As I said, take a look in the domestic ventilation compliance guide - it's all in Chapters 4 and 5 - registerd competent persons can self certify ventilation in the same way as Part P

    Regards

    barney

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