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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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  1.  
    Is there any market for second-hand small turbines? Anyone got any idea how much a 2.5 Proven with 11 metre mast would be, second-hand (excl inverter)?
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2013
     
    I assume you (or whoever) are/is thinking of buying rather than selling. It may or may not be relevant that kit which has been previously used in a FiT installation can't be used in a new one.

    There's somebody in the west of Ireland who deals in such things - reconditions them and repairs the ones which failed but Proven went under before the warranties could be dealt with. Biff on the Navitron forum mentioned them. Sorry, no other details but might give you a hint.
  2.  
    > It may or may not be relevant that kit which has been previously used in a FiT installation can't be used in a new one.

    That seems absurd. What is the rationale, I wonder?

    I'm a little surprised that it isn't like conservatories, where I can get a nearly new one and a specialist company to fit it off Ebay for about a third of the cost of a new one. Business opportunity?

    For almost anything, I have an expectation of 10-20% of the current equivalent new price for secondhand, working, kit, unless there's a special factor making it higher or lower (nearly new, delivered, needs specialist install etc).

    If it really can't be used in an FiT setup, then I'd say you have a problem, as your market could be people who want to try it out for the cost of the suggested usual initial monitoring of the site for a year.

    Ferdinand
  3.  
    There is a market as you do see small turbines advertised occasionally - saw two Gaias advertised last year for ÂŁ25K each (about half the new price) but don't think he would actually get anything near that. The value is whatever someone is prepared to pay. I suspect an owner of a turbine may wish to have a stock of parts but the market is limited - scrap value unless some one has broken a blade out of warrantee?
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2013
     
    Ferdinand, the whole FiT thing is absurd. Don't start with the expectation of anything being rational - you'll be much happier. However, the objective of FiT is, supposedly, to encourage new generation so there's a sort of logic to it - there's no point in subsidizing something which is being done anyway so there's a prejudice against second-hand kit but how should that be defined? It does, though, rather penalize those who move first. Combine that with the complete mess which is domestic RHI…
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 5th 2013
     
    There were also grants before the FIT and I think if you claimed that you were limited on what you could do after with the kit sand new kit.
    I could never understand people that fitted PV before FITs not swapping the panels for new ones, getting it signed off and claiming FITs, but I think they would have to pay the grant back.
  4.  
    Steamy -
    I think it's all to do with dual funding and the EU = EU rules say that you can't receive more than one subsidy for the same thing. So if you had a grant for a wind turbine then you can't claim the FIT as the grant and FIT are both types of subsidy. You could, however, choose which initial subsidy you claim; claim the biggest!
    It also follows that if a turbine was put up with grant aid and the owner then sold the turbine second hand then that turbine couldn't claim the FIT because it had already had a previous subsidy. Makes the market in reconditioned (larger) turbines open to question as presumably you have to verify it hadn't had a previous subsidy if you claim ROC ? Oh and the FIT scheme explicitly said no second hand kit, just in case.
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2013
     
    I've seen a anti wind blog using second hand turbine adverts in the US as evidence that people are ripping out thousands of old wind turbines because they were so useless (sorry to be non specific but this was a while ago) so there must be a market.

    I suspect that the adverts were genuine although the logic rather flawed, as I also remember reading that a large wind farm of old lattice tower turbines was being removed due to bird deaths (lattice tower = convenient perch). The bit the blogs missed was that the turbines were being replaced by modern turbines!

    I suspect the shipping from the US would be a killer though...

    I can probably dig out some references if anyone is interested...
    • CommentAuthorjms452
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2013
     
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamont_Pass_Wind_Farm

    here it is the windfarm in question
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2013
     
    There is a second-hand market for larger turbines as there is no restriction on 'new' kit for ROCs. It only applies to FiTs. Even then you could still import second-hand from abroad as the restriction is that the turbine must not have been used in the UK for a FiTs accredited system.

    But there are very few makes/models that are MCS certified in any case, to make them eligible for FiTs.
  5.  
    Ted

    Is that right in respect of importing from Europe. I was told by Ofgem any turbine which had received EU grant could not be reused for Fits. Only way around was to import from non EU countries mainly US and Canada.

    If I could get it in writing that it was allowable then I have no problem with second hand and the cost savings are enormous.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2013
     
    Do a paperwork export to a non EU country, then import back in.
  6.  
    There is actually a fairly strong market for older style turbine in the EU. DK have a quite a few companies selling older turbine. Stall regulated are common and there is less to go wrong with them. You can also buy the Vestas V27 and soon the V47 from India. Made under license but the quality is lower IMO.
    Make sure switch gear etc is compatible with the UK before purchase.:wink:
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeMay 8th 2013 edited
     
    Posted By: renewablejohnTed

    Is that right in respect of importing from Europe. I was told by Ofgem any turbine which had received EU grant could not be reused for Fits. Only way around was to import from non EU countries mainly US and Canada.

    If I could get it in writing that it was allowable then I have no problem with second hand and the cost savings are enormous.


    This is what the legislation says:

    (2) The Authority must not accredit an eligible installation as an accredited FIT installation where it has good reason to believe that any generating equipment used at the installation has formed part of an installation previously accredited—
    (a)under the ROO; or
    (b)under this Part.

    The 'under this Part' means the FiT Order. It says nothing about foreign imports - so that is down to OFGEM (mis)interpretation I suggest of this section:

    (3) Subject to paragraph (4) and to article 40(3), the Authority must not accredit an eligible installation as an accredited FIT installation unless the FIT generator has given notice to the Authority that—
    (a)no grant from public funds has been made in respect of any of the costs of purchasing or installing the installation; or
    (b)where any such grant has been made, the grant has been repaid to the person or authority which made it.

    Here it depends on how you interpret 'the installation'. It seems clear to me that this is intended to refer to the installation that you are applying for FiTs for and not some other installation in another country. In any case how would you know if a previous owner of the second-hand kit had received any grant from another government or not prior to your ownership of it? You are simply required to make a declaration to that fact.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2013
     
    So I could get a secondhand Gaia (pre-FIT) from someone in the UK and install it and claim FITS? I was always told (by installers admittedly) that only new turbines could get FIT. Could have saved a bloody fortune!
  7.  
    It would be nice to have a fighting chance of getting planning permission for anything larger than a 20kw. Our local council just refused another 500kw turbine application. The appeal for another 500kw in the area has been put back from March to June with the nimby's paying for expensive barristers to fight the case.
  8.  
    Ted

    Concerned with the express advice of this specialist consultancy firm who are adamant that Fits cannot be claimed on 2nd hand equipment. Love to get 2 x 250kw machines for the price of one but dont really want to come unstuck.

    http://www.dartdorset.org/pdf/newton.pdf

    Page 17 of the report.
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2013 edited
     
    That document appears to date from 2010.

    Originally DECC did say that 'second-hand equipment' would not be eligible for FiTs but then actually failed to include any such condition in the original legislation. They brought in an amendment in May 2011 to include such provision. The wording I quoted earlier is essentially unchanged from then.

    OFGEM have published guidance on exactly what equipment is considered 'used' for this condition which also makes it clear that this only applies to equipment that has been previously accredited for RO or FiT.

    http://www.ofgem.gov.uk/Sustainability/Environment/fits/Documents1/Generating%20equipment%20decision.pdf
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