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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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  1.  
    Hi,
    A friend has been approached by a company wanting to install a 50kW turbine on his farm. Planning should be fine as the farm next to him has fitted one already. Thjey have told him that all costs (£350,000) would be paid for by the company. The grid connection would go over his land for around .5 miles. Does the installation cost seem high at all? If the cost was lower he may try and fund it himself.
    I am used to the larger scale turbine operation and the MW price installed is much cheaper then than £350,000 for 50kw quoted although I can understand why to a degree.
    What is the opinion of the wind turbine operators we have on the forum? Does £350,000 seem high to them. The turbine is Endurance.
    Many thanks.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2013
     
    Best way is to work out what the yield will be and then work out the MWh/year price as it does seem very high to me.
    What are you willing to pay him?
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2013
     
    I thought an Endurance was about £275,000 installed but prices do seem to have increased. I'd recommend your friend to install his own Gaia 11kW for about £60K which will yield a much higher income than the rental for an Endurance site.
  2.  
    Thanks both.
    Windy lamb- That is my thought process. As the farm next door has a turbine planning should be more stright forward. He would obviously need to borrow from the bank. How are they at funding small scale wind these days?
    The rental for planting it on his land would be £5k per annum with an upshare if it hits target.
    • CommentAuthormitchino
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2013
     
    What kind of income could one expect from a Gaia 11kW given a suitable site?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2013
     
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2013
     
    I'm on a low wind site (5m/s) and I get £7-8K/ year from the Gaia - I know of plenty who get over £10K- just doesn't make sense to get £5K for rental for an Endurance with all the hassle, potential pit falls from the 3rd party. They will own the turbine but you will get any bad feelings from the community and the turbine owner will have control over part of your land. We found our neighbours very supportive for the Gaia to produce energy for on farm use but it would have been a very different matter for "easy money" from the rental of a bigger turbine owned by a third party.
    Planning won't necessarily be easy because of the neighbour's turbine, might be harder as Proliferation is often a term used by Planners.
    As for borrowing money - good luck with that! Most Banks won't touch wind under £1million and want 2x the value of the project in security (ie you'll have to put up the farm). Finance it yourself or forget it, you'd be better buying some more SFP!
  3.  
    Hi Gusty, I specialise in wind turbine planning applications. Contact me on info (at symbol) ashtreeplanning dot com
    • CommentAuthorwoodgnome
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2013
     
    I got a quote for about £275K for an Endurance last year, plus about 20K grid connection cost. Went to about 300k for the taller tower.
    I have been offered around £6000 per year rental, with an additional 4K when commissioned. Some of the Renewable firms can get you finance based on the FIT's but its about 6% to 8% interest i believe. Most have finance partners who are looking to invest, or you could do a share, 50/50.
    If you have a good site, even at 8% interest it would be much more profitable than a rental.
    I have been advised if you can get your planning in place, you can negotiate a much better rental.
    Taking Windy lambs figures for the Gaia, you would get £200,000 income over 20 yrs, less £60,000 installation, leaves £140,000. That's not allowing for interest and maintenance.
    Taking a 20 year rental at £6000 is £120,000, which is all yours for no expenditure or risk.
    To me the Gaia isn't worth it.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2013
     
    Woodgnome - no risk for a rental site? Until 6 months before the planning expires and the turbine company disappears leaving the landowner to decommission (regardless of what the contract says). I'd rather be in control thanks.
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2013
     
    I would insist on a S106 decommissioning bond, index linked, arranged with a bank, to be in the sum of 50% of the labour and plant installation costs. Then if the turbine company disappears there are independent funds available to pay for decommissioning.
    • CommentAuthorwoodgnome
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2013
     
    I would put something in place along the lines of Teds suggestion. If they won't play ball, no Turbine.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2013
     
    As usual Ted, a very sensible suggestion!
  4.  
    Do these land rental schemes usually pay any benefit from the FIT to the neighbouring community? (beyond the landowner)
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeMay 19th 2013
     
    WillinAberdeen - shouldn't think so unless there's a planning S106 requiring it ("Planning Gain").
  5.  
    Woodgnome- When looking at the Gaia price and the returns I would probably agree with you. However as Ted mentioned the bond is critical to cover cost that may come at end of the turbines life. Large scale wind sites do this so it all adds up. So there may be room to up the 5k if the site is producing well?
  6.  
    Well an update on the thread so far. Apparently the grid connection that wa planned and as far as I am aware verbally agreed on is no longer available. I do not know why yet unless the grid is full but I very much doubt that in sleepy mid Wales. The new proposed connection must come 6km at a cost of £550,000. This obviously kills the project. The chap was trying to get planning for 2 small Endurance turbines to help his farm make a profit.
    Does anyone know if you can question grid connection points or costs involved? This seems criminal to me.
    Many thanks for your help all :sad::cry:
    • CommentAuthorwoodgnome
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2014
     
    Im in the same boat....WPD saying theres no capacity now.
    • CommentAuthorwindy lamb
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2014
     
    It's a bit of a shame that a half mile connection has turned into 6km! And even more complicated if the connection is over 3rd party land. WPD will pay a standard wayleave but a landowner can ask for anything from the developer to gain permission - WPD can't force a connection because it's not infrastructure just a spur to a private development. Connection has always been the critical factor.
    You can always question connection routes and costs (as we did) but if there is only one line with sufficient capacity then there is really only one option.
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2014
     
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2014
     
    That is a brilliant map Ted.
    As Jesus said to Paul, 'I can see my house from up here'
    • CommentAuthorwoodgnome
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2014
     
    Thanks Ted, looking at the map i might be able to get a connection in a different field.
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2014
     
    Don't take the map as 'gospel' but it is useful if WPD come up with something to use it to ask for justification.
    • CommentAuthorwoodgnome
    • CommentTimeFeb 27th 2014
     
    Thanks Ted
    My site is between 2 properties showing more capacity than i need for an endurance. The line connecting these properties and beyond runs across the field where i want to connect...however, put in my postcode where my house is, which is a different line and there is only about 4kw available...
    Will get on to them and see whats what.
    So having looked at the lines yesterday i wont need to connect in another field...fingers crossed
  7.  
    Thanks Ted. What a great piece of information. From what I can see near LLanarth (SA44 4XB) he has lots of options @11Kv with Pant Swllt, GlanYr Ynis, Perth Yr Onw, Ronw Villa and Rhoslwyn all showing capacity of between 170 and 200 KW @1km. This should easily take his proposed 110?
    Am I missing something or does this smell a bit fishy............
    • CommentAuthorwoodgnome
    • CommentTimeFeb 28th 2014
     
    I heard that due to the number of applications for connection in the run up to last Dec, they were saying no capacity to newer applications whilst they caught up with the current ones. Only hearsay mind...
  8.  
    :wink: that sound about right to me.
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