Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)


Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!

powered by Surfing Waves

Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.

    • CommentAuthorzak99
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2013

    We had our bungalow cavity insulated by Milfold very approx 5 years ago under a grant scheme. We cut the wall recently to put some doors in and can see that we were mugged! There are huge gaps in the insulation (brown fluffy bits), it doesn't seem to have spread far from the injection points.

    I gather Milfold have cashed in and headed somewhere hot.

    What's my best way forward please? can I get the cavity filled still. Is there anyway the grant provider would accept responsibility (I can't for the life of me remember who it was).

    We are hoping to weather board clad the exterior in the near future and add external insulation.


    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2013 edited
    There should be an insurance backed guarantee and you should be able to find it from your paperwork. That is the first point of call then the grant provider.

    It is possible to Hoover out what they have done yourself and get it all redone, I prefer platinum polystyrene beads. It ay be worth investing in a cheap boroscope or borrowing mine to survey the cavities.

    I suspect that you one of literally thousands in the same position your advantage is that you know about it.
    • CommentAuthorzak99
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2013
    Thanks Tony, promped me to dig through the paperwork and found a CIGA guarantee. I took photos of the voids when the wall was cut for doors but I suspect they would argue that we disturbed the insulation which is true. However I have a pic of a tape measure entering the cavity 30 inches without touching insulation.

    "it may be worth investing in a cheap horoscope"

    Would the horoscope (!?) tell me if I am going to win the lottery or help with inspecting the cavity and provide more evidence? I guess I will need to drill a few holes and inspect more areas to convince ciga ?
    Is there some sort of affordable thermal image camera available that would lead me straight to bad areas.


    • CommentAuthorSeret
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2013
    Posted By: tonyIt ay be worth investing in a cheap horoscope

    I wouldn't touch one of those cheap soothsayers with a bargepole.

    Posting by phone?
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2013
    I read the tealeafs, works for me.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2013
    Sorry that was my auto spell checker which uses the space bar to accept changes

    It of course a boroscope that I am talking about.
    • CommentAuthorzak99
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2013
    I called CIGA and mill fold were taken over by eaga and then carillon, so I gave them a call and they are going to send a surveyor.
    I'd prefer to get all the fibre sucked out and go with a better fill such as polystyrene platinum such as Tony suggested. We had a few damp problems after the insulation. I suspect we will only be offered partial refill with fibre by carillon. Are there any good firms Essex way?

    Given that we plan to clad and insulate externally to some degree are there any other approaches we should consider.

    Rgds and thanks

    • CommentAuthorzak99
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2014
    Well happy New Year, 5 months later and several creative excuses and fob offs by Carillion and they still have not come to survey the failed cavity wall insulation. I haven't bothered going back to CIGA yet.

    Can anyone please recommend a company that will suck out the old fibre cavity fill and replace it with polystyrene beads or something more efficient?


    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJan 5th 2014
    Buy a vacuum and DIY for the removal might be your only option then get a local contractor to fill empty cavities for you.
    Does CIGA carry details of all CWI installations?

    My current house has a right bodge of a CWI job and it'd be useful to know whodunnit on the offchance they can be made to finish it. :confused:
    • CommentAuthorzak99
    • CommentTimeJan 6th 2014
    I think so, I had my certificate so it was easy for them to track it. Give em a call but don't hold your breath waiting if Carrillion are responsible.

    Whats wrong with your installation. I found huge gaps in insulation when we cut the wall for new french doors.

    I'm hoping I can get it all sucked out now and replaced with polystrene or something more efficient, just dont know who does that in area?
    zak99, I spent a long time a few years back contacting companies which advertised that they would remove cavity fill. In every case I found that they didn't, really. I did not find anyone who used a 'cavity hoover' (if one exists!) . Effectively the ones I spoke to would scaffold up the entire house, remove random bricks and poke the insulation out with a stick. There may be others out there that I did not find, but that was my experience....

    • CommentAuthorzak99
    • CommentTimeJan 8th 2014
    Found this company with a web search, anyone used them ?


    This was an interesting article on Cavity insulation problems

    • CommentAuthorzak99
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2014
    Well 11 months later, small update, Carillion Energy Services have sent an independent surveyor to look at our gappy rockwool CWI. Still waiting to hear what the outcome will be. I'm guessing if anything they will just want to reinject more rockwool.

    I'm not confident that would fill all the gaps. And we now have rising damp in places.

    Still wish I could get it all sucked out!!

    Just want this resolved as I'd like to insulate and clad the exterior.

    Wish me luck !!
    • CommentAuthorMike George
    • CommentTimeJun 16th 2014 edited
    I am hearing lots of stories about CWI being removed in many houses. Particularly in a Zone 4 exposure areas. I am also hearing that such properties are having the work done as part of GDHIF and then externally insulated. Grant aid up to 6k.

    This is worth a read 5th result on this search https://www.google.com/search?q=zone+4+exposure+to+rainfall&rls=com.microsoft:en-US:%7Breferrer:source?%7D&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGHP_enGB463&gws_rd=ssl
    • CommentAuthorzak99
    • CommentTimeJun 22nd 2014
    Thanks Mike, good article, according to that map we are not in a high exposure area but the back of the bungalow is next to open fields and gets driving rain. Thats the wall that now has has rising damp.

    We'd love to get it removed and external insulation under green deal, struggling to get any help from Carillion who now own the CIGA for it. Maybe I should look into a green deal thing. I dont know much about it, isn't that largely for people on low income/savings?
    Nope! GDHIF https://www.gov.uk/government/news/7600-to-make-your-home-more-energy-efficient
    is not means tested.
    • CommentAuthorzak99
    • CommentTimeJun 24th 2014
    Thanks Mike. From a quick look and online survey it may possibly take some effort to get an EPC or GD Assessment recommending EWI in a cavity Wall bungalow. If anyone has any tips on that it would be appreciated?

    Got a letter back from Carrillion re our failed CWI, they are basically saying they cant proceed with any remedy unless we have any of the original documentation, receipt, install docs etc. We have the CIGA guarantee but they say that's not enough.

    I am told that evidence of cavity wall insulation failure is sufficient for EWI to be recommended (by a Green Deal Surveyor) as an alternative. The cavity insulation being removed as part of the process.
    • CommentAuthorzak99
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2014
    Carillion are now adamantly saying not our responsibility. Have I passed the problem back to CIGA. CIGA say it is Carrillion. Anyone have any advice on how I can get CIGA to deal with this in a timely manner.

    I had a friendly chat with a surveyor who confirmed (with a boroscope) that there are voids in our insulation. He though it was possible we had the wrong product installed as we are exposed to driving rain. His view was that CIGA should take responsibility and arrange extraction and ideally replace with Polystyrene beads.

    He thought that EWI under Green Deal could work out expensive for us and that getting CIGA to resolve the existing issue was our first priority.
    • CommentAuthormalakoffee
    • CommentTimeJul 10th 2014 edited
    I'll be watching how you get on with some interest having a similar situation.

    Summary :
    * Obvious voids in the cavity fill, notably above doors & windows. There may be other void areas.

    * Attempts to limit fill to above the DPC line have failed in places. Where fill has slumped to bottom of cavity this has soaked up water leaving a constant soaking mass at the bottom of the cavity.

    * I have cleared out the soaking mass at the bottom of the cavity by hand ( whilst fitting periscope vents around the perimeter ). Nothing to stop further fill slumping down whenever further work on walls.

    * CIGA contact line very defensive. Not interested in any questioning that might lead to a claim. You either put your case in writing or just-go-away !!

    * Original installation company no longer exists.

    Conclusion :
    Unfortunately, I can see that this grant-funded insulation process has deep flaws.
    Elderly and/or naive homeowner wants to make their home warmer ( without any payment on their part ).
    Installer wants the grant money so does a dodgy job on an inappropriate property.
    There is inadequate oversight from the grant-giving organisation.

    This is bad news for everyone and for tax payers in particular.
    The cavity fill work is easy enough to do, but extremely difficult to undo.

    Unless you know different - there is no way to get a soaking mass of fill out of the base of a cavity except by hand. No amount of blowing or sucking can do this.

    Blowing or sucking the fill out can never be 100% effective. There is a great risk of even more fill falling to the bottom of the cavity in the extraction process.

    This really is bad news.
    • CommentAuthorbuckyp
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2014
    I have been involved with a similar situation, we identified a number of areas of missing CWI on 2 properties in Frome, both were insulated at around the same time but we only had a certificate for 1. As with your installer, they have since gone out of business and the guarantee taken over by Carrillion. CIGA have no record of the other property even though as part of the installation fee a CIGA guarantee is included and paid for by the client!
    Carrillion were contacted back in December last year and said they would be in touch in January, after several phone calls/ letters, etc, they finally sent out a surveyor who turned up in February in a suit and nothing to survey the building with! He just took our word for it and said this would be topped up within a month, we are still waiting for any kind of correspondence from them despite further phone calls and letters. Letters have also been sent to CIGA and as yet no response!
    From what I can gather, Carillion cannot get any installer, most of whom seem to have gone out of business since the Green Deal kicked in, to top up the existing CWI insulation because they would then have to take on any liabilities for the whole installation. The only companies that would be willing to top up are the ones who did the original installation, and they are now out of business!
    I am pretty sure if full surveys of CWI were carried out on all houses, most would be found to be partially filled and if you have UFFI insulation you will find that you don't have any left that can be considered to be insulating to any effective standard.
    Remember retrofitted CWI is a minimal insulation and energy efficiency measure and should not be considered to fully insulate cavity walls, it just helps a bit. The CIGA guarantee seems to have less value than the fee paid for it when installed and when a claim is made they don't really know what to do with it because very, very few people actually make a claim. Carillion are one of the main GD providers and they cannot get a simple thing like CWI topped up so what does that say about them and the GD!
    I was very interested to read above that proof of missing CWI is adequate enough to get EWI funding through the GD on cavity wall houses, I wonder if this is because it's easier to find an EWI installer than to find someone to top up the cavities.
    I have a thermal imaging camera and a borescope and often find patches of missing CWI, maybe there is business to be had there providing evidence to get EWI funding through the GD! I will watch this thread with interest to see if anyone manages to get a satisfactory result from CIGA or Carillion but I will not hold my breath!
    • CommentAuthorbuckyp
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2014
    A little add on to my last post. After speaking to my colleague, after months of getting nothing back from Carillion and after giving up on ever getting anything tangible from them, as if by magic, since the beginning of June, coincidentally the same time that the EWI funding for failed CWI installations was introduced from which Carillion could make some money, being a GD provider, numerous letters have poured through her letter box trying to book a date when they can send a surveyor round.

    Am I reading too much into this or am I correct in thinking that topping up was going to cost Carillion money but now a simple solution has been introduced where Carillion can make some money?

    It's probably just me but it would seem that the GD is all about making money for the corporations rather than Greening peoples homes, I'm probably just green and naive and see the worst in people!
    • CommentAuthorzak99
    • CommentTimeOct 17th 2014
    Small update and a question please

    After getting on for 18 frustrating months I believe CIGA are sending a surveyor. They told me today to expect a call next week.

    My concern is getting the right outcome. My opinion is that Rockwool is not the right product in our exposed location (next to open fields) As we have had what looks like rising damp since installation on the rear elevation and I have seen a soggy mass in the cavity when we cut the wall, I would prefer the whole lot was removed somehow. There are also voids in the fill around the property.

    Is it reasonable for me to expect the whole lot to be removed (somehow) ???
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 17th 2014
    Hoover it out from the bottom, long 32mm pipe, carefully take a brick out low down at the corners.

    Do it every few days til no more comes out

    Re insulate with beads
    • CommentAuthorzak99
    • CommentTimeOct 17th 2014
    Quote "tony
    Hoover it out from the bottom, long 32mm pipe, carefully take a brick out low down at the corners.
    Do it every few days til no more comes out
    Re insulate with beads"

    Thanks Tony, Sounds like a good plan, but is it reasonable to expect CIGA to do this?? I think it is but suspect I will have a battle on my hands. Should I get an independent survey and recommendation and give them the bill?
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   

© Green Building Press