Wed, 20 May 2026 12:03:53 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12413#Comment_12413 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12413#Comment_12413 Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:33:50 +0000 jamesingram a glazer/ double glazed unit manifacturer , he claim that the argon etc. filling was pointless as it leaked out of the unit before it leaves the factory
something to do with the permability of the edge seal being unable to hold the tiny gas molicules

I've no idea, has anbody heard of anything similiar

thanks

James]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12414#Comment_12414 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12414#Comment_12414 Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:38:20 +0000 tony
It will be easy to tell if this is happening as air will have to enter and with it water vapour so the units will fog up and they dont so no leaking and it was nonsense]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12418#Comment_12418 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12418#Comment_12418 Sun, 13 Jan 2008 20:46:23 +0000 jamesingram So if it did leak it would be because the units failed, which as you said happens every now and then .

I'll see the guy tomorrow, so i hit him with that one,
the guy I was talking about is always trying to po-po everything, so its good to have some ammo to get him with.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12426#Comment_12426 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12426#Comment_12426 Sun, 13 Jan 2008 22:04:17 +0000 biffvernon https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12459#Comment_12459 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12459#Comment_12459 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:13:46 +0000 fostertom https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12464#Comment_12464 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12464#Comment_12464 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:33:31 +0000 biffvernon a quite different timescale from gross seal failure

Longer or shorter?]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12468#Comment_12468 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12468#Comment_12468 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:40:28 +0000 passivhausfan
How hard can it be to get hold of some dated old units, jab them with a syringe to get the gas out (inject some other gas or something if necessary for the displacement), and then analyse the gas extracted? That's to say nothing of refractive methods.

That we don't know this is shocking.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12478#Comment_12478 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12478#Comment_12478 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 15:38:17 +0000 fostertom Posted By: biffvernon>a quite different timescale from gross seal failure

Longer or shorter?Either - it's a different process - actual seal failure leading to gross leakage, versus diffusion (different rate for different gases).]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12492#Comment_12492 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12492#Comment_12492 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 17:44:14 +0000 biffvernon Posted By: fostertomEitherYes, I suspected that might be the answer.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12498#Comment_12498 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12498#Comment_12498 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:11:42 +0000 skywalker
How many would they sell if they said: " well, it works brilliantly under experimental conditions. We can also say, with abolute confidence, that it works for AT LEAST a few seconds after it has been filled with gas. After that you might as well have stuck with you're '80's Anglians and fitted thick curtains."

I smell a pile of serially digested grass remains deposited by a male bovine in these 'ere inert gases!

Do they not come with some sort of guarentee on contents of the filing (like jammy dodgers).

S.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12502#Comment_12502 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12502#Comment_12502 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:21:24 +0000 skywalker
http://www.windowanddoor.net/pastarticles.php?id=8]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12506#Comment_12506 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12506#Comment_12506 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 18:35:27 +0000 skywalker
www.byv.kth.se/avd/byte/reykjavik/pdf/art_155.pdf

A quote from the summary

"So far, inspections show that the gas concentration in sealed glazing units is a little bit too low in most of the inspected windows, measured values are between 75 and 90 %. Gas filling in sealed glazing units decreases the U-value by about 0.1-0.2 W/m2K, which means that, if the gas concentration falls by 10 %, the U-value increases by 0.01-0.02 W/m2K. In new windows, the average gas concentration should be about 90 %."]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12516#Comment_12516 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12516#Comment_12516 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 20:30:53 +0000 jamesingram
the conversation I mentioned at the start of this discussion was between an architect and the techinicial guy of a DG argon filling machine
manifacuturer, apparently after discussion the tech guy admitted the probablity/possiblity of the argon leaking out before it leave the factory.

so my scepticial friend might have got me again. hells teeth!]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12521#Comment_12521 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12521#Comment_12521 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:12:48 +0000 skywalker
There is little data in the stuff I found but interestingly both give similar figures. Samples appear small to me given the large number of these units out there and most work has been done on test units rather than those actualy fitted in windows in houses/buildings so pick up a nice big handfull of salt. It would be much better if there were more references based on real windows - one is left to wonder why there are not more such studies (or more recent ones turning up on the first couple of pages in a google search) given the realtive ease of testing in a non destructive manner.

Both links above cite about a roughly 50:50 chance of (as far as I can tell) factory supplied test units having more than 90% argon in them (the suggest lower limit ranges in both with 90% accepted in one and 90% described as too low in the other. They also report a 1 in 10 chance of having less than 70% argon (from the same sample). The only 'field tests' cited show concentration ranges of 75-90% but this in not further analised.

It appears that there is an acceptance of loss of Argon at a rate of up to 1% per year in the best sealed units (under test conditions). Another stat' is that 50% and above Argon concentration has a measurable affect on U value (unfortunalely we can't see the table referred to). Each 10% Argon is apparently 'worth' 0.01-0.02 W/m2K with Argon fill described as decreasing U value by between 0.1 - 0.2 W/m2K (not sure I believe it is a straight line - anyone care to comment).

Any way you look at it neither is telling a very good story considering all the extra faff and cost as far as I can see.

S.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12522#Comment_12522 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12522#Comment_12522 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 21:49:37 +0000 jamesingram some form of post installation testing would make sense , to give a bit of consumer confidence

I was charged £6 m2 for argon filling , not that much really in the skeem of things.

So a rough guess would say they might give there apparent worth for 25 years, by which time the unit will probably blow
anyway or the resident all want some new look and rip the windows out.

I think I'll still ask for it though

any other problems with argon we need to worry about?]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12523#Comment_12523 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12523#Comment_12523 Mon, 14 Jan 2008 22:06:42 +0000 skywalker
Most common noble (inert = reacts with almost nothing), colourless, odourless, non toxic, gas found in the atmosphere (less than 1% I think). So you breath it in and drink it all the time.

Flourine gas is reactive enough to bully it into forming chemical bonds but that is about it.

S.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12540#Comment_12540 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12540#Comment_12540 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:22:22 +0000 MarkH https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12543#Comment_12543 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12543#Comment_12543 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:22:24 +0000 biffvernon https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12545#Comment_12545 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12545#Comment_12545 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:27:30 +0000 jon https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12547#Comment_12547 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12547#Comment_12547 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:31:22 +0000 biffvernon https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12549#Comment_12549 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12549#Comment_12549 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:56:25 +0000 jon
Krypton seems almost pointless at these levels: Wonder why they quote it at all?

Found a reference to Argon: Seems there's virtually no embodied difference between argon and air]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12563#Comment_12563 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12563#Comment_12563 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 17:05:12 +0000 Paul in Montreal Posted By: biffvernonIsn't the argon produced as a waste product from natural gas production, rather than coming from air?

No, that's helium - and there's going to be a shortage due to the general decline in natural gas production. But that's a whole other story.

Paul in Montreal.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12568#Comment_12568 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12568#Comment_12568 Tue, 15 Jan 2008 19:16:19 +0000 biffvernon https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12725#Comment_12725 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12725#Comment_12725 Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:28:10 +0000 Mark Siddall
Polysulfide 5% to 6%
Polyurethane 2% to 5%
Silicone 12% to 15%

Reported as I understand it in:
Arasteh, D., Selkowitz, S., Wolfe, J.R., "The Design and Testing of a Highly Insulating Glazing System for Use With Conventional Window Systems," Journal of Solar Engineering, Transactions of the ASME, 1989, vol. 111.
Thikol Gesellschaft mbH, "Gas Permeability of IG-Sealants," Morton Thikol, Woodstock, Illinois, 1988

Leakage rates should have reduced with new spacer technology due to reduced thermal stress etc. But I have no data on this.

Mark]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12726#Comment_12726 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12726#Comment_12726 Thu, 17 Jan 2008 19:30:52 +0000 jamesingram
Those loss rates , what time scale are they over]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12730#Comment_12730 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12730#Comment_12730 Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:02:17 +0000 Mark Siddall
Mark]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12731#Comment_12731 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12731#Comment_12731 Thu, 17 Jan 2008 20:27:28 +0000 biffvernon
Nothing to do with windows but since helium got a mention, here's the state of that particularly noble gas:
http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/3484]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12736#Comment_12736 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12736#Comment_12736 Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:55:59 +0000 tony https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12737#Comment_12737 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12737#Comment_12737 Thu, 17 Jan 2008 21:58:02 +0000 biffvernon https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12744#Comment_12744 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1100&Focus=12744#Comment_12744 Thu, 17 Jan 2008 22:07:34 +0000 tony