Green Building Forum - When the lights go out Sun, 31 May 2026 05:47:01 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191314#Comment_191314 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191314#Comment_191314 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 07:56:42 +0000 SteamyTea A 3 kW generator may be useful, could hook it up to the central heating with a bit of rewiring. Though I suspect that if we really had a national problem then gas would be restricted.
Strange how a power cut creates a sense of community more then 'The Big Lunch' (http://www.thebiglunch.com/) or local government/church schemes.
Down here lots of people take a stroll up the pier and do their best to avoid each other, but when a good South Westerly comes in everyone goes out and starts chatting about it, strange that.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191317#Comment_191317 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191317#Comment_191317 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 08:23:10 +0000 Seret Posted By: SteamyTeaGet a car charger for the phone.

Yep, and since everybody is slowly moving over to USB for charging just about anything you'll find it can charge up a lot of stuff. Newer cars or car stereos will have at least one USB port already.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191320#Comment_191320 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191320#Comment_191320 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 08:54:16 +0000 SteamyTea When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191327#Comment_191327 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191327#Comment_191327 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:26:52 +0000 borpin When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191331#Comment_191331 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191331#Comment_191331 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 09:47:48 +0000 Ed Davies
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-nimh-nicd-and-hybrid-aaa-and-aa-super-easy-8-way-battery-charger-n11bw

Only snag I've come across is that it only charges even numbers of cells which is irritating as a lot of LED devices like head torches use three cells.

“Shame that my laptop needs 19V, what moron thought up that idea.”

You know there are car adaptors for those? About £50 or so. Annoying though that my laptop and netbook need 18.5 and 19 volts so in theory I ought to change the little switch on the adaptor when swapping over. Actually, both run fine of 19 volts, of course, but surprisingly the 19 volt one doesn't run off 18.5.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191356#Comment_191356 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191356#Comment_191356 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:51:16 +0000 Chris P Bacon
http://www.powertrekk.com

Just checked the price, a mere £100 each....:shocked:]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191362#Comment_191362 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191362#Comment_191362 Wed, 11 Dec 2013 19:00:58 +0000 SteamyTea ]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191456#Comment_191456 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191456#Comment_191456 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 14:02:29 +0000 Jonti
Great example of how short term profit making is more important than long term sustainability and shows that the private market does not work in the service market.

Jonti]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191460#Comment_191460 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191460#Comment_191460 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 15:00:39 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: JontiGreat example of how short term profit making is more important than long term sustainability and shows that the private market does not work in the service market.But Jonti, you want cheaper energy.:wink:
Coal price is the backstop, what we have to compare all other prices to. I think that with CCS it will still be competitive, we shall have to wait and see what comes out of the CCS design that DRAX comes up with.:wink:]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191479#Comment_191479 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191479#Comment_191479 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 17:35:15 +0000 Jonti
Jonti]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191495#Comment_191495 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191495#Comment_191495 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 21:47:11 +0000 SteamyTea I do think that long term is important, but long term can be created with a series of short term decisions once, and only once the really big decisions are made. If we had taken long term decisions in the 1930's we would have almost nothing but coal fired generation now, in the 1950's it would have been Nuclear and Pumped Storage, Late 1960's though to 1980 it would have been oil and gas, 1990's it would have been gas only, 00's would have been the start of renewables and gas, 10's would have been renewables only and now it looks like we are going to have to head back to gas (as we can import it cheap, still have lots in the North Sea and can build new capacity in 3 to 4 years).
So whichever decade you pick it would have been the wrong decision long term for a number of reasons, but what we do now have is millions of hours of experience with each type of technology, we tend to know the strengths and weaknesses of each one, we can, to a certain extent, but with limits, make them work together.
So, in my opinion, by not locking ourselves into one technology (like France as done), we have had flexibility and will continue to have flexiabilty.
What does frustrate me is out lack of vision on future needs. CCS could have been done 20 years ago, as could trials of tidal stream turbines, but as there was no political will (because of bad decisions/interpretation of results in the past with the Hot Rocks and Wave Power systems), it has been easier for our leaders to do nothing other than sign bad treaties (think "Our Energy Future" 2006).
The latest news about power shortages in 2014/5 are old news really, this has been predicted for about 10 years.
I was chatting to a work mate tonight and he seems to think that because he has some PV his house is immune from power cuts, he was a bit surprised when I told him that his PV is shut down in a power cut. He said he could get some batteries, I suggested a 7 kW generator and a thick extension lead as a better option.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191500#Comment_191500 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191500#Comment_191500 Fri, 13 Dec 2013 23:26:32 +0000 Jonti
decommissioning power stations now that you know you will need in 4 years time in order to make a bigger profit in the next quarter is slightly different from making a decision about something in the future decades. One of the problems about political decisions is that they are not made beyond the next election (i.e. 5 years) the problem with business decisions is they do not see beyond the next quarter.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the energy firms think they are too important to fail and the tax payer will bail them out. Yu are right about the flexibility compared to France but it is not the public or the country that has this but rather the energy providers. They are even cancelling replacement projects as we speak.

Your last paragraph shows you are either missing the point or don't understand that there will be many coal fired power stations being forced to shut down shortly with no replacements. As for cheap gas, I wonder how the people in the south of England will react when thy realise that in the very near future they will all live within sight of a fracking rig:devil:

Jonti]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191502#Comment_191502 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191502#Comment_191502 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 07:33:15 +0000 Triassic Posted By: Jonti, I wonder how the people in the south of England will react when thy realise that in the very near future they will all live within sight of a fracking rigThe majority don't even notice let alone care. In power plant design and build we need a long term strategy, maybe it should be part of the regulators roll to ensure security of supply long term.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191510#Comment_191510 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191510#Comment_191510 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 09:28:39 +0000 renewablejohn
CCS was done 20 years ago with efficiency of coal plants reduced below 30% and an additional capital cost of 20% hence the reason nobody has gone down that route when the tried and tested alternative of IGCC actually increases efficiency. What we end up with is the cancellation of the IGCC programme of replacement of coal fired power stations and a subsidy to keep Drax generating by experimenting with CCS and the inefficient use of Biomass.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191514#Comment_191514 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191514#Comment_191514 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 10:08:22 +0000 SteamyTea That is part of the problem of making long term decisions based on misunderstanding the technology.
What I think should happen is that there should be a decision to reduce CO2 by x amount and then let private industries get on and deliver it without interference.
What we have ended up with is deadlock over a price for a technology. But that is because we like our cheap electricity.

I actually think that it is going to take a serious shortage of energy to focus the mind. This will be more than a few retailers turning off freezers for an hour or two or a hospital generator kicking in.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191520#Comment_191520 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191520#Comment_191520 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 11:38:48 +0000 Jonti Posted By: SteamyTeaYes John
What I think should happen is that there should be a decision to reduce CO2 by x amount and then let private industries get on and deliver it without interference.


Yet private industry has had the chance to develop new generation on their own bat. The powers that be have not stood in their way and said don't do it. yet look what they decided to do. Short term gain over long term planning.

ST, it is puzzling how you defend the private energy concerns at every opportunity. For you it seems they can do no wrong. I wonder why???? :devil:

Jonti]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191522#Comment_191522 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191522#Comment_191522 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 11:52:46 +0000 Ed Davies Posted By: SteamyTeaI actually think that it is going to take a serious shortage of energy to focus the mind.I agree with most of what you say but unfortunately the result of a serious shortage will be PM's saying publicly to get rid of the “green crap”.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191524#Comment_191524 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191524#Comment_191524 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 11:57:51 +0000 Jonti
I think if we have serious energy shortages in winter 2014/15 then any party promising to nationalise the energy market will get back in. People trust and believe the energy companies even less than they do politicians and even bankers if that is possible.

I am surprised the SNP have not already promised free electricity if Scotland goes independent. :bigsmile:

Jonti]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191526#Comment_191526 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191526#Comment_191526 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 12:03:26 +0000 Ed Davies When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191533#Comment_191533 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191533#Comment_191533 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 14:22:36 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: JontiYet private industry has had the chance to develop new generation on their own bat.And they have, where does the new capacity come from in our non nationalised electricity generation industry.

Loads of data in this spreadsheet from DECC
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/224644/electricity_since_1920_historical_data.xls]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191538#Comment_191538 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191538#Comment_191538 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 15:43:50 +0000 Jonti
but the generation capacity is going to fall over the next few years so they have not even managed to replace that which will be lost let alone meet the increased demand.

Jonti]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191539#Comment_191539 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191539#Comment_191539 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 16:19:33 +0000 SteamyTea Though I am with Ed and think that even after 10 years of warnings no government is going to let the lights go out for the sake of a few thousand tonnes of extra CO2. Not what I want, but that is going to be the reality I think.
Our current state of affairs has been brought about by lack of government leadership, not lack of will on behalf of private enterprise, they seem to have been very patient over the last few years. No government, of what ever flavour, can expect a private company to work at a loss, and that is what they have been hoping for. Our energy policy has been price driven (driven down) rather than quality driven. The latest idea is that the Government, via the NG, is going to pay to have excess 'hot' capacity ready for the inevitable. What a great idea, may as well burn 50 quid notes in peoples houses.
All that had to happen was the price had to rise a bit to attract investment, not a lot, just a bit to keep the investment going.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191543#Comment_191543 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191543#Comment_191543 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 20:14:53 +0000 Jonti Posted By: SteamyTeaYes, true, but that is mainly because of government meddling, rule changing, our planning system. The generation companies want to generate, but there is no coherent plan in place.


How many applications for power stations have been blocked by government? It is supposed to be a private sector so the coherent plan should come from the energy companies. They know exactly what is required and have done for years but they are unable to see past the next profit report. But you know this:wink:

Jonti]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191545#Comment_191545 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191545#Comment_191545 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:04:13 +0000 borpin Posted By: JontiIt is supposed to be a private sector so the coherent plan should come from the energy companies. The reality is that there is no reason for investing in power plants if the price is restricted. The companies can simply run the existing assets (which they were given) in to the ground and when they are exhausted say "oh well never mind we will just shut the company down" leaving us with no generation.

There is no *obligation* on the power companies to generate energy. They only do so because they can sell it. The less there is, the more it will cost.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191546#Comment_191546 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191546#Comment_191546 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 21:21:16 +0000 SteamyTea
As for government hampering new investment, just look at their renewables policy, which is linked to planning. It is not just fossil fuels that generate electricity. It has taken a huge amount of tax payers money to get Hinkley through the first stage of construction, the new DRAX up in Yorkshire is also reliant on being government backed. The energy companies probably don't actually want to be backed by a government, but their financial backers certainly will.
I suspect that we will see little real investment in new capacity in the next 3 to 4 years.

Probably the best thing that could happen is that we do run out soon, it will focus peoples minds.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191547#Comment_191547 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191547#Comment_191547 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 22:20:14 +0000 renewablejohn When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191548#Comment_191548 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191548#Comment_191548 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 22:44:04 +0000 Jonti Posted By: borpin
Posted By: JontiIt is supposed to be a private sector so the coherent plan should come from the energy companies.
The reality is that there is no reason for investing in power plants if the price is restricted. The companies can simply run the existing assets (which they were given) in to the ground and when they are exhausted say "oh well never mind we will just shut the company down" leaving us with no generation.

There is no *obligation* on the power companies to generate energy. They only do so because they can sell it. The less there is, the more it will cost.

Borpin,

you hit the nail on the head. That is yet another reason why energy is not suited to the private market and should be nationalised.




Posted By: SteamyTeaI have to agree with you there borpin, but once a few have pulled out of the market then the remaining ones can start to push the price up to a realistic limit.



ST, WOW:shocked: Talk about no compassion for the less well off.

Jonti]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191550#Comment_191550 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191550#Comment_191550 Sat, 14 Dec 2013 23:26:53 +0000 Triassic When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191553#Comment_191553 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191553#Comment_191553 Sun, 15 Dec 2013 08:08:09 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: JontiTalk about no compassion for the less well off.Saying what I think will happen has no bearing on my compassion for others.
If you look at the data in that DECC spreadsheet you will see that electricity prices have declined in real terms (on the data published) and the longer term prediction is for lower real prices.

We have greater financial hurdles to overcome in the next decade than the price of domestic energy, at least they are being highlighted in the national press.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191566#Comment_191566 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191566#Comment_191566 Sun, 15 Dec 2013 11:18:11 +0000 Jonti
sorry but what you wrote reads more like it is what you think should happen. And you continue with your line of deflecting from the issue. I am going to stop replying to your posts on this issue as I fear it is becoming slightly personal which it should not on a website such as this. What I will say is that in order for people to be able to put comments into context it is important posters to make plain any interests in a particular topic whether personal, financial or professional. You really should do the posters here the courtesy of making your connections with the energy companies clear.

Jonti]]>