Green Building Forum - When the lights go out Sun, 31 May 2026 04:58:37 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191792#Comment_191792 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191792#Comment_191792 Tue, 17 Dec 2013 20:14:53 +0000 Jonti When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191793#Comment_191793 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191793#Comment_191793 Tue, 17 Dec 2013 20:21:21 +0000 borpin When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191794#Comment_191794 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191794#Comment_191794 Tue, 17 Dec 2013 20:22:47 +0000 borpin When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191795#Comment_191795 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191795#Comment_191795 Tue, 17 Dec 2013 20:24:29 +0000 SteamyTea
They have odd laws up in Scotland, most seem to work quite well.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191796#Comment_191796 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191796#Comment_191796 Tue, 17 Dec 2013 20:27:35 +0000 Jonti but that is what makes it interesting.

Jonti]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191805#Comment_191805 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191805#Comment_191805 Tue, 17 Dec 2013 21:52:04 +0000 skyewright Posted By: GarethCHave you discussed rising block tariffs on this forum? i.e. 0% VAT (or even a subsidy!) on the first XkWh of a household's usage (the XkWh being an estimate of what people need to stay warm and cook food with if being sensible about usage and undertaking basic/cheap energy efficiency measures), then 20% VAT on the next YkWh of energy, then 50% VAT above a level that's deemed excessive for a single household.
How to assign a reasonable X to any given household? There must be very many variables, the most obvious being the number of people, their ages, location, climate,...]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191807#Comment_191807 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191807#Comment_191807 Tue, 17 Dec 2013 21:57:30 +0000 Jonti Posted By: skyewright
Posted By: GarethCHave you discussed rising block tariffs on this forum? i.e. 0% VAT (or even a subsidy!) on the first XkWh of a household's usage (the XkWh being an estimate of what people need to stay warm and cook food with if being sensible about usage and undertaking basic/cheap energy efficiency measures), then 20% VAT on the next YkWh of energy, then 50% VAT above a level that's deemed excessive for a single household.

How to assign a reasonable X to any given household? There must be very many variables, the most obvious being the number of people, their ages, location, climate,...

That is why government then works out a simple formula so simple that no one really understands how it works.

Skyewright, there is no answer that will suit all but a low cost, minimum use answer is the answer to making energy affordable to all.

Jonti]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191823#Comment_191823 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191823#Comment_191823 Wed, 18 Dec 2013 09:45:57 +0000 skyewright Posted By: Jonti
That is why government then works out a simple formula so simple that no one really understands how it works.

Skyewright, there is no answer that will suit all but a low cost, minimum use answer is the answer to making energy affordable to all.
Certainly an interesting idea, but terribly complex to make both "affordable to all" and a useful exercise.

The trigger for "Cold Weather Payments" (the closest thing I can think of that already exists - not really close, but...) already varies according to location & actual weather.

Around here the place used for the trigger used to be Tiree which by coincidence or otherwise also often happened to be the warmest place in the area (low lying, open aspect, surrounded by sea,...)! I believe the trigger site has now been changed?]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191852#Comment_191852 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191852#Comment_191852 Wed, 18 Dec 2013 12:46:52 +0000 markocosic
They're invariably an assured shorthold tenancy south of the border. Far more flexible:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/11892/138286.pdf


"How to assign a reasonable X to any given household?"

Per person on the electoral roll at that property, plus an allowance for children for whom they are legal parents or guardians with custody.

Anything else subsidises the owners of poor quality housing stock or those under-occupying larger properties.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191853#Comment_191853 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191853#Comment_191853 Wed, 18 Dec 2013 12:59:24 +0000 borpin Posted By: markocosic"You can make almost anything a condition of the lease (strictly a license to occupy IIRC). In this respect I think Scotland and the rUK are the same."

They're invariably an assured shorthold tenancy south of the border. Far more flexible: Law is pretty much the same up here re tenancies. License to Occupy is different (usually a rent a room type agreement). Either way, restricting fuel supplier can be a condition imposed.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191888#Comment_191888 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191888#Comment_191888 Wed, 18 Dec 2013 21:06:05 +0000 db8000
However a clause requiring the tenant to seek landlord's consent (not to be unreasonably withheld) is allowed. It is reasonable to refuse if physical alterations are required to carry out the change.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191889#Comment_191889 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191889#Comment_191889 Wed, 18 Dec 2013 21:38:02 +0000 Jonti
the other problem is of course the duration of an agreement. Landlords do not want tenants to leave leaving the landlord to honour a fixed term contract.

Jonti]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191897#Comment_191897 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191897#Comment_191897 Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:06:51 +0000 borpin Posted By: db8000I think the OFT have stated it is unfair to prevent tenants from switching completely. I would like to see any sort of evidence for this statement. I'm pretty sure that you are allowed to restrict supplier but not tariff.
Posted By: Jontithe other problem is of course the duration of an agreement. Landlords do not want tenants to leave leaving the landlord to honour a fixed term contract.
The contract for the tariff is between the tenant and the power company. Any arrears etc are the tenants liability not the landlords (even if they do a runner). The landlord takes a reading on repossession and they are liable from that point. (edit) Most tariffs / fixed contracts end if the consumer moves with no penalties.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191899#Comment_191899 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191899#Comment_191899 Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:16:18 +0000 borpin https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/news/tenants-energy-rights-explained indicates you can though note the date of the guidance.

Having had 2 rented properties in the last few years, both agreements restricted change of supplier so I think this is a new position.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191903#Comment_191903 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191903#Comment_191903 Thu, 19 Dec 2013 08:52:31 +0000 SteamyTea I wonder how many landlords actually keep up the the latest legislation.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191909#Comment_191909 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191909#Comment_191909 Thu, 19 Dec 2013 09:48:03 +0000 Jonti Posted By: SteamyTeaThe way I read that is that tenants can change (unless there is some reason why they cannot, probably a technical one).
I wonder how many landlords actually keep up the the latest legislation.

Fewer than many imagine and the big firms are often the worst at updating.

Jonti]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191914#Comment_191914 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191914#Comment_191914 Thu, 19 Dec 2013 11:00:13 +0000 djh Posted By: SteamyTeaI wonder how many landlords actually keep up the the latest legislation.
Doesn't really matter. The tenant just calls an energy supplier and moves. The landlord only finds out afterwards if the tenant is good enough to tell them. When we moved into our current rented place a year ago last August, I changed supplier and nobody knew who the previous supplier was! Didn't stop the process though.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191942#Comment_191942 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191942#Comment_191942 Thu, 19 Dec 2013 19:04:20 +0000 db8000
See P. 64 from the OFT's guidance from September 2005

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/unfair_contract_terms/oft356.pdf

@Jonti - I wonder if signing up to a fixed tariff that runs beyond the end of the tenancy fixed term might be a reasonable excuse to refuse consent.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191943#Comment_191943 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191943#Comment_191943 Thu, 19 Dec 2013 20:40:53 +0000 borpin Posted By: db8000@Borpin, you've found the answer to your question to me anyway, but interestingly, this is not new:
See P. 64 from the OFT's guidance from September 2005 Yes but that whole section is about conditions that are *potentially* unfair in the OFT's view at that time. The lastest guidance is more specific in that it is an unfair condition.
Posted By: db8000@Jonti - I wonder if signing up to a fixed tariff that runs beyond the end of the tenancy fixed term might be a reasonable excuse to refuse consent.
For the third time I will say that fixed price tariffs have clauses in them that terminate the contract on moving (whether an owner or tenant). I suspect to do otherwise would be considered unfair as you would then only be able to move within the same supply area.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191949#Comment_191949 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191949#Comment_191949 Thu, 19 Dec 2013 22:43:58 +0000 db8000 ]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191971#Comment_191971 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191971#Comment_191971 Fri, 20 Dec 2013 12:37:38 +0000 borpin Posted By: db8000If one wishes to be pedantic, you did say most fixes rather than all fixes Ah excellent, a pedant who spotted another pedants change. Yes I did, but on doing some digging I did not find any that didn't and as I say, I suspect, because the price is tied to your location, making it otherwise would be an unfair contract condition.:bigsmile:]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191975#Comment_191975 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191975#Comment_191975 Fri, 20 Dec 2013 14:07:16 +0000 Ed Davies Posted By: borpinAh excellent, a pedant who spotted another pedant's change.]]> When the lights go out https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191978#Comment_191978 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11277&Focus=191978#Comment_191978 Fri, 20 Dec 2013 15:06:36 +0000 atomicbisf