Green Building Forum - What could £16b buy us Tue, 23 Jun 2026 23:28:33 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187080#Comment_187080 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187080#Comment_187080 Wed, 23 Oct 2013 11:36:09 +0100 Gotanewlife Posted By: fostertomExcept in sexy new railways.

Not an option there either in that no-one else would be dumb enough to invest in HS2 so the Government had to do it themselves - obviously this is in line with their borrowing theme because all the fincial benefits the rail ine will bring will more than cover the vast vast expenditure: makes sense to me:wink:]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187081#Comment_187081 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187081#Comment_187081 Wed, 23 Oct 2013 11:47:57 +0100 fostertom Posted By: Gotanewlifeall the fincial benefits the rail ine will bringare so obvoius, why
Posted By: Gotanewlifeno-one else would be dumb enough to invest in HS2
]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187087#Comment_187087 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187087#Comment_187087 Wed, 23 Oct 2013 13:09:04 +0100 Ed Davies
I've no idea if that really applies to HS2 but it's at least theoretically possible.

With a power station, on the other hand, electricity is a moderately fungible commodity so direct sales to the grid more-or-less directly reflect the overall value. Government funds would benefit very little in addition to the sales revenue so there's not likely to be additional benefit to a government financing it.

In some cases government gets additional benefit in the long term - e.g., when a new scheme results in technology development resulting in future business (ideally in the government's country, rather than elsewhere). That, it seems to me, is a good argument for government intervention in previous nuclear programs and currently in renewables. This power station, though, doesn't seem to be likely to lead to any new technology so that argument for support doesn't apply either.]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187098#Comment_187098 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187098#Comment_187098 Wed, 23 Oct 2013 14:25:21 +0100 Gotanewlife
At one time I was the Customer Service and Performance Manager for a contract between EDS and the RAF (I became very cynical as a result), then I ended up staffing all the key documents (as gate keeper not the boss!) for a huge new contract between EDS and the MOD - my MA in Change Mgt on the subject concluded that: the Means justifies the Ends. Or in other words it was probably worth lying through one's teeth to get the numbers to add up in order to get the change desired. It was kind of irrelevant who knew it was all utter rubbish.

They were good times and I learnt a lot. Did I mention that I took early retirement....]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187110#Comment_187110 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187110#Comment_187110 Wed, 23 Oct 2013 16:27:43 +0100 fostertom Posted By: Ed DaviesfungibleMy English teacher required: 'Look up, every day, one word that's new to you, and use it'. Thanks! Does this mean there a verb 'To funge'? Or is it like the perversion of 'To leverage'?

So lo-grade solar heat collected on-site is not fungible i.e. cannot be traded or exported/imported so has no market value?

And there's no funge is sight that can do anything about the inexorable global decline in EROEI? (upomn which western industrialised society is based?]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187111#Comment_187111 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187111#Comment_187111 Wed, 23 Oct 2013 16:31:03 +0100 fostertom Posted By: fostertomIt's not stopping gas, oil, electricity, wood fuel etc going up, since 2003, after long (100yrs in case of oil) stasis. http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/forum114/comments.php?DiscussionID=11295&page=1#Item_0]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187122#Comment_187122 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187122#Comment_187122 Wed, 23 Oct 2013 17:47:02 +0100 Ed Davies
In the context of a typing problem I saw somebody using the word “fing” the other day; it's what a finger does, apparently.]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187136#Comment_187136 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187136#Comment_187136 Wed, 23 Oct 2013 19:15:37 +0100 fostertom What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187142#Comment_187142 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187142#Comment_187142 Wed, 23 Oct 2013 20:34:33 +0100 SteamyTea Posted By: Ed Daviesdy using the word “fing” the other day; it's what a finger doesNow I am no English snob at all, but some words should not be turned into a verb :wink:]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187255#Comment_187255 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187255#Comment_187255 Thu, 24 Oct 2013 13:43:41 +0100 djh Posted By: SteamyTea
Posted By: Ed Daviesdy using the word “fing” the other day; it's what a finger does
Now I am no English snob at all, but some words should not be turned into a verb
Nah, a 'fing' is the archetypal noun. 'Long of its siblings - enifing and evrifing.]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187259#Comment_187259 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187259#Comment_187259 Thu, 24 Oct 2013 13:54:43 +0100 Gotanewlife ]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187262#Comment_187262 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187262#Comment_187262 Thu, 24 Oct 2013 14:06:00 +0100 SteamyTea What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187273#Comment_187273 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187273#Comment_187273 Thu, 24 Oct 2013 17:09:56 +0100 CWatters What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187278#Comment_187278 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187278#Comment_187278 Thu, 24 Oct 2013 18:25:39 +0100 fostertom What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187280#Comment_187280 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187280#Comment_187280 Thu, 24 Oct 2013 19:27:01 +0100 renewablejohn What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187299#Comment_187299 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187299#Comment_187299 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 08:41:16 +0100 fostertom What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187304#Comment_187304 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187304#Comment_187304 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 09:29:56 +0100 fostertom http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2013_10_17_what_did_the_1973_oil_embargo_teach_us
A great all-round state-of-play summary.
Mentions 'nuclear proliferation', just like I said a few posts back!

Beats me why RMI gets so little interest or mention on GBF. Maybe because RMI is devoted to making the 'profitable business' path to the future work, while 'greenies' really prefer apocalypse followed by return (for the survivors) to peasant economy. However, few 'deep greenies' on GBF nowadays - I do miss them!]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187308#Comment_187308 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187308#Comment_187308 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 09:59:54 +0100 renewablejohn Posted By: fostertomhttp://blog.rmi.org/blog_2013_10_17_what_did_the_1973_oil_embargo_teach_us" rel="nofollow" >http://blog.rmi.org/blog_2013_10_17_what_did_the_1973_oil_embargo_teach_us
A great all-round state-of-play summary.
Mentions 'nuclear proliferation', just like I said a few posts back!

Beats me why RMI gets so little interest or mention on GBF. Maybe because RMI is devoted to making the 'profitable business' path to the future work, while 'greenies' really prefer apocalypse followed by return to peasant economy. However, few 'deep greenies' on GBF nowadays - I do miss them!

I think part of it is trying to cut through the red tape of embedded systems. You would think a renewable replacement for diesel would be welcomed with open arms but the barriers to entry in this market seem unsurmountable well at least for a small producer.]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187317#Comment_187317 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187317#Comment_187317 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 11:12:41 +0100 fostertom http://www.amazon.co.uk/Escaping-Matrix-people-change-world/dp/0977098303/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1382695814&sr=1-1&keywords=escaping+the+matrix
Not so sure about the proposed remedy; the Transition movement says it better.
But the diagnosis is mind blowing. Like, we knew it already but here it is in full strength.]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187318#Comment_187318 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187318#Comment_187318 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 11:18:12 +0100 fostertom What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187332#Comment_187332 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187332#Comment_187332 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 14:34:04 +0100 fostertom http://www.bdonline.co.uk/5062378.article?origin=BDweeklydigest
Sizewell as well.]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187341#Comment_187341 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187341#Comment_187341 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 15:47:18 +0100 leakyPipes
Severn barrage is expected to provide 5% of our electricity, versus 7% for the pair of HP-C reactors, but at a similar cost and a lifetime of 100+ years vs 40 tops for a nuclear plant, and of course no decommissioning costs. Nuclear utilisation runs at 80% so they are pretty well matched in terms of absolute energy generation. Nuclear is on all the time, whereas the barrage is subject to the tide.

Which is the more friendly to the environment?

I am guessing that the severn barrage has fairly severe but highly localised environmental costs mainly to sealife, new nuclear has more widespread environmental costs. Need to factor in a disaster, say 0.05% chance of a severe nuclear accident per year, whereas a barrage has much better defined and predictable environmental costs??

REAL science needs to come into this somehow, so that all the options can be quantified and evaluated the best way we can at the moment.]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187348#Comment_187348 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187348#Comment_187348 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:18:13 +0100 SteamyTea There is about 15,000 years worth of experience, say 4 major incidences (one minor, ours, and one due to tsunami), so the risk of accident is very low. http://www.euronuclear.org/info/encyclopedia/n/nuclear-power-plant-world-wide.htm
A barrage will have huge environmental impacts for wildlife and though it may produce 7% of the nations power when measured as a percentage of annual need, it is variable, though this is manageable and not really a problem.
I am up for both, but we need to be realistic about the costs. I think a barrage would cost more, but may be worth more.
If wind turbines can be installed for £1/W, and I am sure the hardware can then we could have about 16 GW installed, yielding between 28,000 GWh/year and 56,000 GWh/year depending on location and weather. Probably as useful as a barrage and a lot less environmental damage and very easy to decommission. Even of the generator and blades had to be changed every 20 years, we could be starting this next year with a very quick deployment (if we could just overcome our irrational fear of them).

I still wonder if this EDF deal will go though, it is not approved yet by the EU.]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187352#Comment_187352 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187352#Comment_187352 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:29:05 +0100 leakyPipes
The best partner for wind is pumped storage, which can surpass 80% efficiency. I don't know how much potential there is left in great britain, but I do know one 200mw scheme in northern ireland that was abandoned due to the 'troubles':

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15581826]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187353#Comment_187353 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187353#Comment_187353 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 16:36:00 +0100 fostertom Posted By: leakyPipessay 0.05% chance of a severe nuclear accident per yearWhat %age chance of a mad despot arising just once in the next 2000yrs? Bit higher than that, I'd say. Someone prepared to spread genetic catastrophe far and wide (poss in ignorance, during a future dark Age), for perceived advantage?

Tell me why it's unscientific to factor that in, seeing that at stake cd be survival, or not, of life on earth? Don't say that something that's hard to estimate doesn't exist, in Science.]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187358#Comment_187358 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187358#Comment_187358 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 17:10:13 +0100 renewablejohn What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187359#Comment_187359 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187359#Comment_187359 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 17:19:50 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: SteamyTeaThere are 437 nuclear power station in operation, so I think the safety record is a bit better than 0.05%/year.Yes.

There is about 15,000 years worth of experience,
Sounds about right. 437 since 1950 would be 26'000 years experience but the fleet's been built up steadily but not much in the last decade or two.

say 4 major incidences
I'd say two major: Chernobyl and Fukushima. So that's 0.013% per year of operation.

If we go for a substantial proportion of nuclear, say 40 GW, we'd need about 12 plants the size of Hinkley C. If we run them for 40 years that's 12 × 40 × 0.013 = 6.2% risk. Is that acceptable?]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187360#Comment_187360 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187360#Comment_187360 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 17:26:11 +0100 leakyPipes
The problem is survivor bias, because we have not had a 'severe' nuclear accident since the windscale fire certainly doesn't mean that this will continue into the future.

Fukushima was caused by cost cutting in the tsunami defences and having the backup diesels at sea level, other design decisions that may only manifest themselves every few hundred years or so have almost certainly been made in Europe & the US, it's just that they haven't happened yet or hopefully will not happen. Regardless, the risk however small is still there, and this risk must be taken into account when choosing where to invest.

I am pro-nuclear, but there are risks present whether intentional (ie. cost cutting) or not.]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187361#Comment_187361 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187361#Comment_187361 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 17:45:53 +0100 Ed Davies Posted By: leakyPipesSorry tom, I don't understand. The chances of a mad despot emerging are surely not dependent on whether hinkley C gets built or not? and therefore can be excluded from any analysis.He's talking about the chances of a mad despot with access to lots of radioactive material. Obviously.]]> What could £16b buy us https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187362#Comment_187362 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11289&Focus=187362#Comment_187362 Fri, 25 Oct 2013 17:58:11 +0100 fostertom Posted By: leakyPipesI am pro-nuclearis saying the risk (the existing stockpile) is already there so no harm in vastly increasing and proliferating around the globe the opportunites for more of same.

The poster: Roman soldier with drawn sword standing in front of Hinkley: 'if the Romans had nuclear power we'd still be guarding their waste'. Fat chance of that, over the reassuring last 2000yrs.]]>