Green Building Forum - DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population Wed, 03 Jun 2026 02:06:08 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188427#Comment_188427 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188427#Comment_188427 Fri, 08 Nov 2013 17:59:19 +0000 jamesingram http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b03h8r1j/This_World_Dont_Panic_The_Truth_About_Population/

"Statistician Professor Hans Rosling presents a spectacular portrait of our rapidly changing world, showing how the problems of rapid population growth are starting to be conquered."

An enjoyable watch last night, a positive take on the situation for those with concerns over our growing population.

In a nut shell we've already reached a potentially sustainable birth rate through out the world, even though most of us in the west think many others haven't due to our misconceptions.

Pragmatic, realistic, any thoughts ?]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188433#Comment_188433 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188433#Comment_188433 Fri, 08 Nov 2013 20:21:20 +0000 fostertom http://www.gapminder.org .

Rosling's final word is not 'this or that must be done to mend the world' (because it's already mending like never before) - but that the rich and educated (us) need to drop our cultivated ignorance and look clearly at the world and see it as it really is.

Simple as that. We the rich have all the resources to look clearly, but instead we choose to simply feed our self-serving prejudices.

That is the world's problem, not population pressure or resource depletion, but the self-dumbing of the rich.]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188438#Comment_188438 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188438#Comment_188438 Fri, 08 Nov 2013 21:28:28 +0000 SteamyTea
http://www.newscientist.com/special/population

And even older than that
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21929321.000-did-a-bet-on-metal-prices-save-the-lives-of-millions.html

The general consensus in the science/economics community is that there is not a problem. Though if there were less people any problem is easily dealt with, so always a paradox.

We tend to scale things to what we know, which is not very accurate.]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188441#Comment_188441 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188441#Comment_188441 Fri, 08 Nov 2013 22:18:15 +0000 fostertom Posted By: SteamyTeaOld Old NewsThe point is, the rich (well he singles out the (Murdoch-addicted) Brits for scorn) studiously maintain themselves in ignorance of same.]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188448#Comment_188448 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188448#Comment_188448 Sat, 09 Nov 2013 07:20:06 +0000 Seret
The most important thing is to get the standard of living in the developing world up as quickly a possible. It's a rising economic level that brings the demographic transition that results in falling birth rates. Mostly that's just about basics, these people need reliable clean water, electricity, education and communications. If they're given that, they'll sort it out for themselves.]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188471#Comment_188471 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188471#Comment_188471 Sat, 09 Nov 2013 11:41:34 +0000 fostertom http://www.gapminder.org/news/highlights-from-ignorance-survey-in-the-uk .

The 'vested interest' is no doubt economic self-interest. But more than that, it's emotional.

'We' really really want to go on believing we're superior in as many ways as we can think of. And we want to go on believing it's 'us' and 'them'.

Talking this morning to someone brought up in white Kenya, now working with UN agencies on development in E Africa, S America, knowing all the right things, like development and infant health leads directly to smaller families and stabilising populations (instead of the common belief that only high mortality keeps 3rd world populations in check - quite the reverse).

Then came the knockout - to her, that's the only way to persuade 'them' to stay at home, instead of migrating to UK and 'breeding like rabbits'. Spot the discrepancies.

Just as large sections of 'us' Murdoch-reading westerners think of the growing western underclass as 'them', so also the west as a whole, underclass and educated alike, is deeply hooked on seeing non-western 'them' as alien. Some people really need to feel 'us' vs 'them', 'in' vs 'out', 'normal' vs 'strange', in order to feel at all good about themselves. The Murdoch media is built on that customer base and gives it what it wants.

'We' claim the right to go anywhere in the world, for holidays, for medical treatment, to live in the sun, to work - but 'they' can't come here. What happens when whole nations, or upper classes of, equal or surpass western standards? That is the goal of my UN-agency friend. But she still can't allow that 'they' can even then be part of 'us'.

Still, it's happening anyway, so Murdoch readers, both underclass and educated, will somehow get used to it, but not before a lot more rightist pandering and sabre rattling, to catch their votes.]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188603#Comment_188603 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188603#Comment_188603 Sun, 10 Nov 2013 22:49:47 +0000 Terry Regardless of all this complicated us/them etc etc, there are currently 7 billion and moving up to 10/11 billion with a supposedly improving income and consequent yearning for the 'finer' things in life.
All this equates to a potentially growing demand on resources, in a finite pot.
The Prof. says (paraphrasing a bit) we need to find a way to share our consumption between a greater number so perhaps a static demand, but all the time the resource pot is dwindling.
What are we going to do when it is empty?
Will technology save us by solving the energy crisis and finding ways to endlessly recycle everything?
Will bickering and wars save us?
Will everything come to a sticky end when the life support system that is the planet earth finally chokes on all our hot air?]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188627#Comment_188627 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188627#Comment_188627 Mon, 11 Nov 2013 09:28:22 +0000 jamesingram 2. May be
3. No
4. yes ( well for human and some other living things, others will adapt)
:bigsmile:

I think the positive thing to take from the program is a solution is possible , even if difficult.
The stats. show population growth in the world has reached 'peak birth'
One thing we shouldn't be doing is pointing the finger of blame in the wrong place.

'I've met the enemy and it is us ']]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188645#Comment_188645 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188645#Comment_188645 Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:42:21 +0000 fostertom Posted By: Terrythis equates to a potentially growing demand on resourcesNot necessarily or inherently - get that very clear, and possibilities start to emerge.
Posted By: Terryperhaps a static demand
again, not necessarily, because as well as
Posted By: Terryways to endlessly recycle everything
also to do the same (or more) with less resources.

And beyond that, to do the same (or more) with 'negative resources' i.e. to see everything we do, make, build, as an opportunity to not merely use less resources, or to add to accumulating environmental damage at a reducing rate.

Rather, to actually design everything we do, make, build, as an opportunity to actively assist the planet, nature or whatever, to accelerate its clean-up of the mess we've made. The planet has always performed that role - it's just that lately we've exceeded its capacity to do that. That's the idea behind the behind of Permaculture, and therefore of the Transition Movement - though neither of these presently says much along those lines in practice.]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188661#Comment_188661 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188661#Comment_188661 Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:18:41 +0000 jamesingram That's what they're trying to encourage here.
http://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/
"The circular economy is a generic term for an economy that is regenerative by design. Materials flows are of two types, biological materials, designed to re-enter the biosphere, and technical materials, designed to circulate with minimal loss of quality, in turn entraining the shift towards an economy ultimately powered by renewable energy."

The good thing is the corporates like it, if they create structures and systems that keeps their product resources in their ownership through out the production, sale(lease), re-sale, refurbishment, upcycling and recycling for future production, it reduces doubt over (and the need for) future resource cost and supply allowing better long term planning, control and profit.]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188665#Comment_188665 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188665#Comment_188665 Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:51:11 +0000 fostertom
One problem not discussed about 'cradle to cradle' is that after manufacture, chemical combination etc, what used to once to be pure feedstock has steadily moved 'downhill' both chemically and as mixtures of materials. Separating these out and 'pumping back uphill' to pure re-useability will require massive energy input - no amount of tech ingenuity can change that basic fact.

That energy input needs to be seen a a whole new major energy sector, along with the present 3 - buildings, industry (incl resource extraction), transportation. It obviously shouldn't be from fossil source, else we'd actually be going further backward with it, as far as finite resources. Please not nuclear. That leaves renewable, in fact solar. Implications of that?

Unless something like 'free energy from the quantum vacuum' or other Startrek-forecast. But then our emigrant elite wd be off to the stars anyway, for another slash-and-burn phase. However the starving masses left behind wd still have no choice but to live within earth's energy and resource current-account.]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188681#Comment_188681 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188681#Comment_188681 Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:34:36 +0000 jamesingram Posted By: fostertomGood stuff there.One problem not discussed about 'cradle to cradle' is that after manufacture, chemical combination etc, what used to once to be pure feedstock has steadily moved 'downhill' both chemically and as mixtures of materials. Separating these out and 'pumping back uphill' to pure re-useability will require massive energy input - no amount of tech ingenuity can change that basic fact.. This is where 'design' comes in. Selection of materials that can easily be returned to pure feedstock. Design and creation of new materials that have this capability, to suit requirements where current feedstock can't be easily be restructured , upcycled . This requires a bit investment in 'green' chemistry to aid the design process.
Yes Renewable or free energy is the only sustainable source, so we'll have to go with renewable for now :surfing:]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188682#Comment_188682 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188682#Comment_188682 Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:41:26 +0000 jamesingram http://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/circular-economy/explore_more/think-differently-1/point-of-view-treating-emissions-as-resources-by-braungart-mulhall

Point of view: Treat emissions as resources, By Braungart & Mulhall

"The answer is to see greenhouse emissions as resources instead of problems.

Surprisingly, this is not a new solution. For example, greenhouse growers globally have been using CO2 emissions as nutrients in their greenhouses for years and have actually been manufacturing the stuff. In this sense they have been making profits from turning greenhouse gases into true greenhouse gases.

Recently the respected German Fraunhofer Institute for Environment, Safety and Energy Technology calculated that up to 80 percent of CO2 emissions from German industry could be captured and reused by rooftop greenhouses that profitably produce crops"]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188692#Comment_188692 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188692#Comment_188692 Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:36:02 +0000 fostertom Posted By: jamesingram"up to 80 percent of CO2 emissions from German industry could be captured and reused by rooftop greenhouses that profitably produce crops"but 99% (?) of that wd immediately escape from the greenhouse just the same? 1% or something wd be captured as biomass.

So this isn't a sequestration ploy (except, as a one-off (reversible) if it led to more plants currently growing in the world), just plugging into an extg. resource stream to increase production (and accelerate the carbon cycle). Good tho.]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188695#Comment_188695 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188695#Comment_188695 Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:41:29 +0000 fostertom Posted By: jamesingrammaterials that can easily be returned to pure feedstock'Easily' means they underwent minimum exothermic (or other energy dissipating or energy-locking) reaction during conversion to something useful. Successive re-uses can cascade further 'downhill' (that's what 'recycling amounts to at present). But ultimately those bonds have to be re-broken by an energy input that equals that dissipated (plus inefficiencies), in order to be fully restored to 'virgin' state. That's inescapable - and a hell of a lot of energy.]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188700#Comment_188700 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188700#Comment_188700 Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:54:03 +0000 jamesingram If not then they need to degrade to a levels or stages where other uses are found for them. Ultimately at the end of the cycle do they become useless? I'm thinking of the need to create or use existing technical nutrient that mimic the organic nutrient cycle, so at end of life they convert to an energy feedstock . In simple terms like compost .


"Waste does not exist when the biological and technical components (or ‘materials’) of a product are designed by intention to fit within a biological or technical materials cycle, designed for disassembly and re-purposing. The biological materials are non-toxic and can be simply composted. Technical materials—polymers, alloys and other man-made materials are designed to be used again with minimal energy and highest quality retention (whereas recycling as commonly understood results in a reduction in quality and feeds back into the process as a crude feedstock). Coined by Braungart and McDonough, the phrase “waste is food” summarises the circular philosophy – though as Braungart himself would say today, “the word waste should not even be in there, there is no such thing, everything should be food.” http://www.ellenmacarthurfoundation.org/circular-economy/circular-economy/the-circular-model-an-overview]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188710#Comment_188710 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188710#Comment_188710 Mon, 11 Nov 2013 19:39:12 +0000 SteamyTea The Second Law of Thermodynamic basically means that everything becomes useless, That's Entropy man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnbiVw_1FNs]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188711#Comment_188711 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188711#Comment_188711 Mon, 11 Nov 2013 19:44:02 +0000 jamesingram DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188743#Comment_188743 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188743#Comment_188743 Tue, 12 Nov 2013 09:20:10 +0000 fostertom Posted By: SteamyTeaThe Second Law of Thermodynamic basically means that everything becomes useless, That's Entropy manYes, on a cosmic scale (tho there's doubts nowadays about that
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cycles-Time-Extraordinary-View-Universe/dp/0099505940/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1384247413&sr=1-1&keywords=penrose+cycles+of+time

By on a planetary scale, entropy can be and is constantly apparently reversed by inputs of energy from the local star. Indeed, a prime characteristic of Life is that it captures more than its share of environmental energy and so exports (aka dumps) its 'waste' entropy into the environment, and ultimately out into space.

The ancient traditions talk about Ki/Chi, LifeForce/Breath etc, and modern hippydom talks about 'energy' which outrages scientists because it obviously isn't the same as electromagnetic energy. It strikes me that what the'yre all on about is not energy itself, but its derivative (or precursor?) negative-entropy. Maybe a dose of life-enhancing negative-entropy is what you get by breathing right, or facing the sun or whatever.]]> DON'T PANIC - The Truth About Population https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188744#Comment_188744 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=11369&Focus=188744#Comment_188744 Tue, 12 Nov 2013 09:35:38 +0000 fostertom Posted By: jamesingramcreate or use existing technical nutrient that mimic the organic nutrient cycle, so at end of life they convert to an energy feedstock . In simple terms like compostTechnical nutrient is good concept. Because ready-to-use compost is almost as chemical/energetically degraded as it can get - yet it's full of nutrients.

So it's 'technical nutrient' for a process which, as I say, captures and inputs masses of environmental energy to break the chemical bonds, separate the inertly combined/locked compounds out into purer, simpler compounds that are full of new energetic potential to then start recombining in new useful ways.

It's using plants to capture solar energy and pump the compost 'back uphill' into simple CH compounds (cellulose) which are just longing to combine with something.]]>