Should we insulate a lot of homes a little bit or should we encourage good levels of insulation are installed when they are installed.

Currently good is defined by building regs under part L1b, which in my way of thinking insufficient but better than nothing.

There are some that are suggesting that less insulation than required by L1b may produce more savings, lower levels of insulation more widely applied leading to greater savings.

The problem I have with this is that it is very expensive to retrofit insulation and so we should do it well and to a good standard when it is done. The marginal cost of the extra insulation pales into insignificance compared to the cost of redoing it in all cases apart from DIY installs where there is already a greater willingness to do it well anyway.

As part L1b is seldom (understatement) applied or enforced, is it worth having it at all? Indeed should we encourage all insulation no matter how poorly done or when it is done minimally on the basis that it might be done more widely?

I have recently witnessed how someone with an old, solid wall house responds to the insulation issue. They has just bought the house from a landlord and thus is was run-down and bodged. The houses either side (it's mid terrace, circa 1820) are also owned by landlords and both have caused problems. One landlord has fixed it but the other has a leaking shower that soaks the party wall and also defective guttering and mortar haunch that serves as flashing where her roof abuts the party wall. Landlord 2 refuses to repair the defects.
To remedy the new householder, driven by a mortgage retention based on a full survey, has had the wet walls dry-lined over stud membrane. The front and back walls were subject to a similar retention and were 'damp-proofed' on the recommendation in the survey. The surveyor made no mention of L1b, the householder had never heard of it. I discussed the possibility of wall insulation. None was done because the damp-proofing needed a guarantee (mortgage condition) and the installers were just not in the insulation business. Based on their abysmal standards, they should not be in any business.
EWI is never going to happen on that house so just put aside the dogma. IWI would involve major changes.
At the front, moving one doorway, re-configuring the staircase, moving both gas meter and electrical distribution board, stripping out original cupboards, moving radiators to another wall (harder that you might imagine), stripping and re-configuring wardrobe. A the back, moving heating and water pipes, cables, re-configuring kitchen, moving toilet, wash basin, moving boiler, stripping out and remaking linen closet.

Now, insulation is cheap but the consequential works are, at least for this couple, impossibly expensive. Add in the loss of space in a small house with a tiny kitchen and the answer was a total rejection.
I am hoping that they will insulated the suspended ground floor when they have the budget to tackle the BTL landlord flooring (cheap laminate). I did manage to duct the cooker hood out rather than into the room (another feature beloved of BTL landlords). I got them to get a bathroom fan too but the installer bodged it by not bothering with the permanent live so it does not run on. I'll fix that at some time but needs me to find the right junction box. The ventilation was essential to limit the condensation and black mould. Tried to get them thinking about MHRV but the costs were beyond their threshold too.
They can't afford it and the consequential works are so extensive that the potential savings would not be seen as beneficial within the horizon of any householder. The space loss impact reinforces the view that it is just not worth it.
I think the GD is doomed but then I see it as debt peddling rather than an energy efficiency strategy. Government interference and handing market control to another bunch of 'accredited' bodies and fee paying 'approved' contractors with a hierarchy of dubiously qualified 'experts' will only lead to price inflation for something that is already very expensive. I would never do it and I would never buy a building lumbered with someone else's debts.
I have built two SAP A rated homes and the idea that good energy performance enhances value is pure delusion. No one cares and no one understand energy performance. I had to explain what the C4SH, EPC rating and PV FiT meant in practice to an estate agent a few months back. No one gets this stuff. The only things that matter are location x 3 and how many bedrooms (magic number is 4).

I think I agree with everybody! (Well, every3sofar, anyway! *Edit: MG and I were obviously typing at the same time!)

There is so much ignorance even of the requirements of L1B/(L2B too), let alone of the sort of standards which would get you down near 'zero heat'.

And the issue of going for the best while you can (in the face of only marginal materials costs) is very important. I 'dry-lined' (that's what we called it then) our house in 1987-90 with a variety of materials, but mainly 47mm Styroliner (38mm XPS bonded to pl'bd). It was fitted as advised at the time, on adhesive dabs, and with a gap at the bottom to facilitate good vertical joints with uneven floors.(!!!!) It was not just my house being done like this. I was working for a HA which did about 450, and to my knowledge, the walls in the ceiling/floor void were never insulated and no returns were ever done onto internal or party walls.

Mine performs nothing like it 'says on the tin', although I have begun disorganised attempts at air-tightness improvements. Next year we will completely strip out the living room, insulate as it really should be done with wood fibre (it's getting IWI, not EWI ) - although with the supplier-recommended 100mm max we will not even achieve 0.3 - and replace 28-year old pathetic D/G with Green Building Store 3G at 0.75W/m2K. Together with u/fl ins and very careful attention to (air-tightness) detail, this will give us our 'Inner Core or Refuge' - one really comfortable room, while we think whether we could possibly afford the rest!!

I agree with Nick

Mike
Have you modelled the difference between insulation versus airtighness?

Fred
Did they get a big discount because of the financing conditions?

Mike,
Perhaps we should take the 'choice' out of the equation, and enforce.....?

Posted By: DarylPMike,
Perhaps we should take the 'choice' out of the equation, and enforce.....?http:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/devil.gif" alt="" title="" >

How do you make people spend money they haven't got?

Mike,

If they have money to put in new kitchens, and other works, they have money to upgrade...
If they do not have the money to improve their dwellings, then they can pay the high(er) fuel bills...unless they can access funding streams designed to help them?

Assuming you guys have the right way forward. How would you go about forcing people to spend money on insulation? Consequential improvements was one way - but then this would only ever affect those carrying out other work such as extensions and even then only amounted to 10% of the overall contract sum... In order to force £8000 worth of EWI the contract would need to be 80k! Many HTT homes don't have the space for this kind of extension let alone the inhabitants having the money

And what about those not planning extensions? How do you even know when they are going to buy a new kitchen or suchlike?

Mike,

I am not for forcing anyone..... however,

.....if a landlord wants to convert a solid-walled single dwelling (house) into multiple-dwellings (flats/apartments) then he/she should be compelled to improve on the thermal performance of the dwellings.
This will help prevent the current problems being perpetuated......?

.''if a landlord wants to convert a solid-walled single dwelling (house) into multiple-dwellings (flats/apartments) then he/she should be compelled to improve on the thermal performance of the dwellings. ''

I agree wholeheartedly. I came across a scheme recently where the developer was not aware till a fairly late stage that there was any obligation to insulate. In that case it was unequivocal. All the plaster was off, so they were, without doubt, 'adding or replacing a layer'.

Do you be any remote chance sell these?

Posted By: Fred56One landlord has fixed it but the other has a leaking shower that soaks the party wall and also defective guttering and mortar haunch that serves as flashing where her roof abuts the party wall. Landlord 2 refuses to repair the defects.

SInce that's a real fault causing a nuisance spend 4 minutes sending an email to the EHO asking the Council to become interested; that may get it done.

EHOs have huge powers to threaten people with administrative punishment, which may work.

"This is an unofficial letter; if we have to inspect and send you an official one the admin fee is £400.".

Ferdinand