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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorGBP-Keith
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2014
     
    It would be nice to publish this thread in our next issue of green building mag. SteamyTea, can I assume that I have your permission to reproduce your charts and photos please?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2014 edited
     
    Yes, can't guarantee that they are right as there is always the possibility that I have made a mistake.
    The more I think about it, the more confusing it gets.
    If one looks at the formula for thermal inertia, I=(kpc)^0.5 and expand it you get:

    I=(W.m^-1.K^-1.kg.m^-3.J.kg^-1.K^-1)^0.5

    Now if you want to maximise the possible energy transfer between two masses (say the air and the wall) then the Thermal Inertia for each element needs to be equal. If you want to store energy then they need to be unequal. This leads to a problem as you can change a number of parameters, you can change the mass, the surface area, the heat capacity or the volume, you can't easily change is the energy input (the Watts) as this is fixed either by the weather or the heater (so it is in effect constantly varying). So what you end up with is:

    I[a] = I[m]
    where [a] is the air and [m[ is the mass.

    In longhand this would be:

    (W.m[a]^-1.K[a]^-1.kg[a].m[a]^-3.J[a].kg[a]^-1.K[a]^-1)^0.5 = (W.m[m]^-1.K[m]^-1.kg[m].m[m]^-3.J[m].kg[m]^-1.K[m]^-1)^0.5

    When in equilibrium this can be written like this:

    1 = (W.m[a]^-1.K[a]^-1.kg[a].m[a]^-3.J[a].kg[a]^-1.K[a]^-1)^0.5 / (W.m[m]^-1.K[m]^-1.kg[m].m[m]^-3.J[m].kg[m]^-1.K[m]^-1)^0.5

    If you want to store enough energy in the thermal mass to 'carry though the winter night', you will need the product of the [m] value to be a factor 3 larger(ish), so it can release enough energy over a longer period. But to release energy from the wall to the air, the wall must be at a higher temperature.
    As you can't practically change your walls or what they are made of to suit the weather conditions you have to make a compromise.
    Once you punch in some valid numbers you find out that you need very little thermal mass (Ed mentioned this on another thread, but in a different context) to give you the ideal ratio.

    I think, but cannot prove without real data (data anyone), the reason that people in houses with a small air to mass ratio think that it is the mass that keeps the place warm is that they are underestimating the 'two foot thick stone wall' U-Value and the air leakages in the building. This is where a decent experiment is needed (I have one in mind).
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2014
     
    Unheated well insulated (80's ans 90's) timber frame homes in my area typically drop to 7C on cold winter mornings (BRE research 1990's), Victorian terraced homes rarely get colder than 14 or 15 on the same days

    My house falls to 19.5 by morning again on the same sort of days.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2014 edited
     
    Tony, got a link for that BRE research please.

    Kedrick et al, 2012 draw a different conclusion, though were more concerned with a future climate.
    "This modelling study has found that there is little difference in thermal comfort performance for future warmer weather
    predictions between framed buildings and traditional masonry construction as currently practised in the UK"

    I had another paper that basically said the same, was a Brazilian one though.

    Found it:

    Thermal Inertia and Natural Ventilation
    by Goulart 2004

    And Szokolay, 1985 thought that it only makes a difference when diurnal variation is above 10 K. A rare day in Reading, even rarer down here, though happens in Scotland's Eastern side.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2014
     
    I went to a seminar there in the late 1980's I think but have no ref, I am sure they will be the same now though most people run the heating 24/7 now
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2014 edited
     
    Kedrick et al, 2012 is this, presumably:

    https://radar.brookes.ac.uk/radar/items/8efc1c31-eada-e467-932e-e9213f76e39e/1/

    But that, at least from the abstract, is only talking about overheating in summer. That's a tiny fraction of the year.

    It also says: “Thermal mass can reduce overheating, primarily in the daytime, but it must be properly exploited by good design (good night ventilation, correct materials in the correct places).”

    It does, however, go on to say: “It is suggested that it is possible to optimise lightweight housing to provide similar thermal comfort levels during occupied hours using ventilation and shading.”

    Ie, thermal mass can help with overheating but there are other ways of doing so, too.

    More importantly, it's talking about “a typical UK … house” so not likely with good insulation or airtightness.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2014
     
    Posted By: tonyI am sure they will be the same now though most people run the heating 24/7 now
    Exactly. Thermal mass only helps if you're trying to exploit an intermittent heat source (like solar gain).
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2014
     
    Which we surely should all be trying to exploit
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 21st 2014
     
    I agree that we should be using solar more, what PV is good at, and heat pumps.

    What frustrates me is the lack of side by side comparison studies in the UK. Most studies do seem to focus on the damping down of higher temperatures (similar to what the Atlantic Ocean does to Cornish temperatures).
  1.  
    Solar gain can only be exploited when the sun shines! Where I live (East Kent) I reckon I can count the number of sunny winter days on the fingers of one hand. I might be a little pessimistic but not far off.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: PeterStarckSolar gain can only be exploited when the sun shines
    And at least half the time it don't.
    Sunny here at the moment, but yet another storm is coming in, by the time it gets to you, Devon will have taken the rainfall.
    If we really wanted to use the weather to save some polluting then we should be using the sunshine in the West Indies that causes our rain. Build more micro hydro.:cool:
  2.  
    It's been clear blue sky today so far, but it's not common in the winter. Only one more week and it's spring.
    • CommentAuthordaserra
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2014
     
    Wood stoves are also best used intermittently also to take advantage of a hot burn and for convenience (one burn per day) . A good reason to have plenty of thermal mass around them. Combi boilers etc the opposite if condensing.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2014
     
    Posted By: daserraA good reason to have plenty of thermal mass around them
    I was thinking about just that earlier.
    This makes them like one of my E7 storage heaters. High temp but relatively small amounts of thermal mass when compared to the rest of the building.
    Just out of interest, next time you do a burn could you measure the temperature of the wall opposite the burner before and after the burn (hope it is not in a corridor :wink:). Be interesting to see how much it goes up by.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: daserraWood stoves are also best used intermittently also to take advantage of a hot burn and for convenience (one burn per day) . A good reason to have plenty of thermal mass around them. .


    This is why I fancy a masonry stove, a wood stove buried in masonry, just the ticket?

    P.S. I like thermal mass
    • CommentAuthordaserra
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2014
     
    I can and will although the wall is 7 m away and the stove only puts around 1-2kw into the room (and 10 into the water jacket). The wall behind is 500mm rammed earth so I'll also take a measurement of the other side of that in case it's useful.
    I have a German neighbour here with a masonry stove in a poorly insulated building and he rates it highly.
    • CommentAuthordaserra
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2014
     
    I didn't have time to find out how to upload the excel of this. The figures don't show the run down period as I went to bed. Very little temp variation in the mass anywhere although it was quite a cold night so the energy was probably lost to outside.
    • CommentAuthordaserra
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2014
     
    Hers's showing where the WBS is in the scheme of things. The room it's in is a vented cavity wall, 20cm brick inside, 4cm cork, 6cm airgap, 20cm Ytong outer(0.34 U). The floor is uninsulated concrete (as yet) and the roof is 13mm pine topped with 90mm XPS then tiles(0.22 - 0.37 U depending on how I calculate it). The large glass area is double glazed (4-12-4) "thermal glass" with exterior aluminium thermal shutters (1.11 U)
    The part behind the WBS is all 500mm original rammed earth construction, topped with 13mm pine and 30mm XPS then tiles.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2014 edited
     
    I plotted just the 'burn' time for the walls and air temperatures.
    Seem to me that your walls are pretty well insulated, though hard to tell.
    What surprised me was that behind the boiler the wall temp did not rise much. There is only a 0.19°C difference over the time period when compared to the other all. Not what I would have expected.
    • CommentAuthordaserra
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2014
     
    That also surprised me although the flue is double lined with Rockwoll wrapped around it and the entire back and sides of the stove are water jacket so surface temps are low until the water temp gets up to nearer 70C. There's also some thermal bridges from the rammed earth, up to the tiles is uninsulated and the concrete "buttress" connects directly to the outside although it is extremely massive.
    Nice to see those charts, thanks.
  3.  
    Forum contributors may be surprised to learn that many topics herein were much-debated in the early 1970s and I imagine by our forebears long before.

    The thermal mass conundrum is easily simplified. In virtually all heating situations, optimisation hinges on the manner of occupation: 24/7 like an old folks' home, daytime like schools, or erratically like many modern home.

    The first of these benefits by thermal mass, which helps to reinforce the stability. The last is optimised by a house constructed of insulating foam with negligible mass, Residents come home, light a candle, house warm. Leave home, blow out candle, house cold. Put another way, they need a very rapid response system, with no wasted heat by the cooling of a warm heavy mass when unoccupied.

    A point almost universally ignored is the critical factor of radiation. Mammals are far more sensitive to radiant heat than to air temperature. Hence comfort of sunshine outside on a frosty day. Radiant effects derive not only from 'radiant' heat sources, but also the loss of radiant heat from our bodies. Hence warm air + cold walls means discomfort as we loose radiant heat to the walls. You doubt? Now imagine it is a cold winter night and you are naked having just left the shower, nicely warm. You enter your 20C bedroom but to get dressed but had forgotten to draw the curtains of the large window (fortunately no neighbours!). You cross the room passing the window - and immediately feel the chill as you pass by because you lose your radiant heat to the cold black world of the window and that from the wall is absent....Try it (Leave light off if neighbours!)

    As to wind chill of houses - yes a significant factor. That's why our forebears chose sheltered locations for their homes, usually built gable-end to the prevailing wind.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014
     
    Posted By: funcrusherA point almost universally ignored is the critical factor of radiation.
    I admit I do not fully understand the interaction between walls and people (though Ed has been very patient).
    But if you have light weight walls, say plasterboard, would they not warm up quicker than a foot of stone. Then they could start radiating effectively?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014
     
    Posted By: funcrusherAs to wind chill of houses - yes a significant factor. That's why our forebears chose sheltered locations for their homes, usually built gable-end to the prevailing wind.

    I think you're stretching the term 'wind chill', which is to do with evaporation off the skin. Sheltered locations for houses are to do with reducing infiltration and moisture ingress from driving rain, as well as minimising mechanical damage. All of which we can design around now, though shelter is still useful.

    Posted By: funcrusherThe last is optimised by a house constructed of insulating foam with negligible mass, Residents come home, light a candle, house warm. Leave home, blow out candle, house cold. Put another way, they need a very rapid response system, with no wasted heat by the cooling of a warm heavy mass when unoccupied.

    I agree with the general ideas but the reality is that a house like this doesn't exist. And a very well-insulated house with a realistic amount of mass has a time constant long enough that it needs to be considered.

    Schools and offices with a single shift are an abomination on almost every resource front. But tradition says office work takes place between 9 and 5 on weekdays. And schools close for long periods as well as being unoccupied for most of the day when they are in use. But that's politics.
    • CommentAuthordaserra
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014
     
    From my work with solar pool heaters, if you shelter the non-glazed collectors from wind with a low wall around you get much better output.
    • CommentAuthordaserra
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2014
     
    I think wind chill can affect buildings without evaporation being involved as still air can act as an insulator to an extents whereas if the air around a building that is heating it is blown away, heat will be lost at a faster rate, albeit nowhere near as fast as with evaporation and infiltration.
    • CommentAuthordickster
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2014
     
    We're well insulated, low mass, (the house, that is).

    We've struggled in our heads the last few weeks, with the outside temp meaning that technically we don't really need to light the stove every day (indoor temp between 18.5-20C, slowly falling as chimney bricks cool down). However, we still feel a bit chilly if sitting doing nowt much and so have the stove on trickle fashion (I know it's naughty), especially when it's raining.

    funcrusher's comments are very educational. Thanks,
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2014
     
    What have your outside temperatures been?
    • CommentAuthordickster
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2014
     
    ranging -1 to +10C, let's say average 7-8C. Incredibly mild for time of year. I reckon we would lose maybe 1.5 to 2C per day as exposed inner brickwork starts to cool if wood burner not on.

    Tried degree days some time ago, but lost all data thanks to PC breakdown (not backed up, of course) and incompatibility with new kit, I reckon outside average temp of 13C or below, we need a fire on.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMar 7th 2014
     
    My heating goes on at an outside daily mean temp of 10°C.

    Where in the country are you and I shall see what data I can get
  4.  
    I doubt if 'wind chill', has a scientific definition, though perhaps 'wind chill factor' does. Many vernacular expressions eg 'heat' have later received a definition for scientific purposes.

    'wind chill' is in my opinion simply a modern expression for forced cooling, which is a long-established if minor topic in physics but of great importance in metallurgy, as cooling rates are fundamental to properties of alloys inc steel. It is also a sub-set of forced cooling by fluids in general which encompasses heat exchangers and much more.

    In any event, quite low air speeds have a dramatic effect on cooling rates of bodies inc buildings, as it disturbs the boundary layers of air, which act as a hidden insulator. Try wearing nothing but a string vest on (a) a calm day and (b) a breezy day. Cooling effects are magnified by surface roughness( the inverse of streamlining). So houses with quirky shapes with lots of protusions like dormers and bays suffer more. it would be interesting to know if ivy helps to insulate by stabilising the boundary layer.

    Previous thread reference to shelter provided by walls needs qualifying. Solid obstacles produce dramatic turbulence , so unless the sheltering object is far smaller than the wall, the shelter effect is limited. Better to have eg belts of trees, where the wind is gradually brought to a halt. Even in the recent hurricane it came to pass that as I walked through an area of woodland, the under-storey was almost calm whereas high above the wind howled.

    Note that our forebears (again!) got there first and most substantial houses were built with adjacent shelter belts of trees.

    Crevices and moisture penetration can be a problem, but are an entirely different class from wind chill per se.
   
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