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General: Filling gaps around window frames

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  1.  
    Hi all,
    I have just got around to having a builder replace my windows. I asked him to fit the new frames with no gap between the frame and the opening in the house structure, I suggested expanding foam.
    He is concerned about expansion of the frames in hot weather and wants to leave a gap.

    What is a suitable type of material which will give a bit and allow expansion and contraction of uPVC window frames?

    Many thanks for any help anyone can give,

    Peter
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2014
     
    Compression foam on a roll available in various widths and final expansion thicknesses.
  3.  
    Thanks owlman - a three minute response time.

    I am thinking about draughts but also noise because we live beside a railway line, will compression foam help with that? I guess you are thinking of compriband or similar?

    Peter
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2014
     
    What is the coefficient of expansion of the frames?

    Negligible compared this load of fuss!

    I would use anything, expanding foam can deform plastic frames as it sets but it is NOT incompressible, I would favour the careful use of filling foam.

    Also seal inside and out with aprocriate sealants on all FOUR sides
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2014
     
    Soudal FlexiFoam, sticky as you know what to a Samaritan blanket, ever so slightly flexible after it has cured.
    We use it for all windows/doors now, combined with the expanding PU foam tape.
    Although i am not sure the PU foam tape is really required, it was specced.
  6.  
    I can second Soudal Flexifoam, good stuff. My windows were installed with Compriband around the centre of the frames and I used the foam on both sides of the Compriband.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2014
     
    Posted By: Peter Clark............of compriband or similar?

    Peter,
    I don't know Compriband as a brand name but there are similar tapes. I had a look and yes it looks like the sort of stuff I've used and which I had in mind. The tape is compressed in it's storage, roll form, and once you unwind it slowly expands. I've used similar products in the past when installing fitted cabinets and the like.

    Mike
  8.  
    This is what we use on this side of the pond - a PU foam that is designed specifically for this application and is flexible:

    http://building.dow.com/na/en/products/sealants/gspwindowdoor.htm

    Paul in Montreal.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2014
     
    and available from screwfix (amongst others on this side of the pond!!!).
  10.  
    Thanks all, seeing the man tomorrow, I will let you know the outcome.
    Peter
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2014
     
    You mentioned noise Peter, some of the compression tapes are closed cell structure like Neoprene others open cell. I would guess the closed cell ones would be better for noise reduction, and coupled with sealant foams either side should do a good job.
    • CommentAuthordaserra
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2014
     
    I also use the Soudal and since I've bought a gun I don't waste any anymore. I then finish it off by smearing/caulking with MSP sealant applied with masking tape either side on all 8 gaps..
    • CommentAuthordaserra
    • CommentTimeApr 3rd 2014
     
    I always wedge up internally with batten wood to stop the foam squashing the frame, and hold it in position with 12-18 home made wooden wedges.
  14.  
    I spoke to my builder - traditional salt of the earth type of guy. He has accepted the sense in using the Soudal or Dow expanding foam products. I did not mention compression tape, information overload.
    What do we think:- silicone bead on the outside, expanding foam in the middle between window frame and house, a timber quadrant profile inside??
    Peter
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeApr 5th 2014
     
    Posted By: Peter ClarkI spoke to my builder - traditional salt of the earth type of guy. He has accepted the sense in using the Soudal or Dow expanding foam products.
    Make sure he uses the right one! Not all foams are equal. The Flexifoam will not stress frames. If it is not blue, then it is the wrong one. Ironmongery direct used to do it at a good price.
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeApr 5th 2014
     
    ... still do!:cool:
    • CommentAuthordaserra
    • CommentTimeApr 5th 2014
     
    Posted By: borpin
    Posted By: Peter ClarkI spoke to my builder - traditional salt of the earth type of guy. He has accepted the sense in using the Soudal or Dow expanding foam products.
    Make sure he uses the right one! Not all foams are equal. The Flexifoam will not stress frames. If it is not blue, then it is the wrong one. Ironmongery direct used to do it at a good price.

    I have found you get less, but not zero expansion, so I brace up anyway (after an unhappy experience)
  18.  
    Hi daserra,
    Thanks, we have not done this yet but will soon. Can you tell us about the unhappy experience?
    Peter
    • CommentAuthordaserra
    • CommentTimeApr 18th 2014
     
    I used it on some pre-made framed internal doors (not sure what you call these in the UK). Normally we brace them up internally before foaming but after reading the blurb on the foam we used it seemed we wouldn't need to. It appears we did so had to dig out the foam and start again as the opening closed a couple of mm and wouldn't allow the doors to close nicely.
  20.  
    Thanks daserra,

    My thought is that if it is a uPVC window frame with the glass in it, and the Dow product mentioned above is intended for that purpose, then it ought to be OK - if correctly installed! The installation instruction mention wetting, to make sure all the expansion happens at the time of installation, and caution to take account of the expansion.

    I suggested this to my builder, so if there is a problem, I will get blamed no doubt.

    Any thoughts anyone?

    Peter
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeApr 19th 2014
     
    Brace the frames good and the sill so it is straight, leave a couple of days before glass goes in and mechanically fix too.
  22.  
    Salt of the earth type builder agreed to fill all the gaps with expanding foam from Dow before silicone bead on the outside and plaster/hard wood strapping on the inside.
    Some have been done on the outside only(leaving gaps), some have not been done(leaving gaps), some have been done on the inside only (with gaps).
    Fitters are proceeding to plaster board reveals prior to skimming. Plasterers are due tomorrow to skim reveal boards and existing reveals, thus covering all sins.
    Salt of the earth type has stopped answering the phone or answering emails
    Any advice?

    Many thanks,

    Peter
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2014
     
    Not much help in this instance Peter, except to offer a bit of sympathy as I too am the recipient of shoddy workmanship. Mine was a VAT registered, Websited, LOGO'ED. company supposedly of repute. "Years of experience", they said. Well, after years of experience, IMO they've learned nothing about the materials they are using and their properties.
    I'm furious with myself for not supervising more closely, after decades of woodworking, design, construction, and refurb jobs, it just shows you can still get taken for a ride. I've paid them too.
    If you haven't paid ,don't, until you are 100% satisfied. If you've paid then welcome.
    • CommentAuthorPeter Clark
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2014 edited
     
    Sorry to hear about your woes owlman, thanks for the response.

    I have paid instalments fortnightly in arrears, but the bills have not been itemised ( 'I have years of experience in the area, my reputation is my income...blah...blah').

    What is the legal and practical position if I refuse to pay the last instalment until I am satisfied?

    If the plasterers plaster tomorrow, I will have to bear the disruption of the undoing it, but can I force him to do that, and who must pay the extra?

    Can I talk to his fitters and ask them to do things my way, are there insurance implications, or any others?

    Thanks for any thoughts,

    Peter
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2014
     
    I guess the Small Claims Court is the place for settlement and apparently it can be done online. Proof is the key though. A photographic record would be an essential, I would guess, a RICS surveyors report is going to set you back about £450 and then there's the letters. You can claim it all back if you win plus the cost of rectifying the work, plus the knock on inconvenience, I think.
    Can the plasterers plaster board and plaster just the walls, and omit the reveals for the time being. If you fixed a timber surround to the window opening just on the reveal outer corner that gives you the opportunity to continue into the reveal when the matter is resolved. That is easy to do, even if it means taking a square section timber and machining a decent rebate and planting right on the blockwork corner.
  26.  
    Sounds like something I would like to avoid, so maybe I will have to accept draughty windows and the 'plasterboard tent'.
    Peter
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJun 2nd 2014
     
    Insulated plasterboard ??
  28.  
    If you are out of time then get yourself a gun and some foam now and make sure it is done tonight? Make sure you use a small nozzle on the gun (do not be tempted to use "handheld" cans, they are uncontrollable!), use a low expansion foam, moisten the surfaces to improve adhesion. Job gets done properly and take the costs out of your final payment. I certainly wouldn't leave it as it is for the plasterers to cover over and I wouldn't want them held up either.
  29.  
    Posted By: willie.macleodget yourself a gun and some foam now and make sure it is done tonight

    Ditto - goferit and beat the system
  30.  
    Posted By: Gotanewlife
    Posted By: willie.macleodget yourself a gun and some foam now and make sure it is done tonight

    Ditto - goferit and beat the system


    Good advice, but I cannot do it this evening - too many other things in the way.

    I will post an update, but really how hard is it to do a simple thing like this a bit differently?

    Peter

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