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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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  1.  
    House coming along well now and time to look at the heating and renewables, etc. Period property with solid walls and 5 bedrooms, 2 Bathrooms, 2 WC, 22 radiators, (all new with TRV's) and UFH going in to kitchen. Although we have made improvements to insulation and new windows since, EPC for annual space and water heating when we moved in was approx 30,000KWh and 3,000kWh.

    Current plan is as follows.

    Replace oil boiler with pellet boiler through RHI
    Wood burner with back boiler in living room
    Thermal store of unknown size, 1000l???
    Solar PV, possibly with immersun type smart switch

    I have come to this arrangement through my own research and lots of contradicting opinions however would really like some advice from those more experienced, as I know many of you are.

    So the questions that we are struggling with.

    Firstly are we on the right route to successfully meet the houses demands?

    How do we size the various heat sources, i.e do we plan to meet all needs with the pellet boiler and everything else is just a bonus?

    How do we size the store? It will be in utility room with solid floor and only restriction is around 2m max height.

    Once we can clarify this then we will hopefully be able to start narrowing done our options on available products and systems.

    Thank you in advance.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2014
     
    Timber has approximately 5 kWh/kg
    So your 33,000 kWh/year demand will require 6.6 tonnes at 100% efficiency, probably get about 75% efficiency so getting close to ten tonnes of pellets. Find a price for pellets and a pellet store.

    As for sizing the store, that is tricky as 2/3rds of the year you don't need it to buffer the space heating. So consider separating DHW and Space heating. They do different jobs at different times at different temperatures.

    Use a PV calculator to get a good estimate of what you can generate, and then think about how much you can realistically use.
  2.  
    Thanks for the reply.

    I had roughly calculated it to be the same, so that on wood pellets alone we would need 7-8 tonnes, however not sure how reliable the 95% stated efficiency is for the biomass boilers. This puts fuel costs at £2k a year, which although only slightly less than the current oil bill allows us to use RHI to offset this for 7 years. Pellet store is around 3-4 tonnes and will be a built structure beside the store and boiler.

    We have access to free wood for the wood stove so will not be relying on the biomass boiler for all heating therefore could potentially halve the pellet use during the winter when stove in use and reduce it in the summer with PV. I do see that keeping 1000l tank hot all summer just for hot water though is excessive!

    Interested to look into splitting the DHW and heating. I guess that the boiler could heat both if needed while PV/immersion can do the smaller hot water cylinder and the stove just to the heating store, that way heating and water both have access to the 'free' sources of fuel. Does that sound advisable?
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2014
     
    I find splitting the summer and winter DHW supply to be quite successful. It is especially pertinent in Spring and Autumn when you don't want to be keeping a full buffer of hot water just for DHW, and when your woodstove may provide all your space heating requirements.
    • CommentAuthorscrimper
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2014
     
    How I wish I was in your starting position, knowing what I know now!

    Anyway ... we are yet to commission our pellet boiler ... it should fire up in 6 days time HOPEFULLY ... but there is a load of stuff I already wish I'd done differently.

    Straight off the bat, and in no particular order:

    1. Look VERY carefully at pellet store sizing. Don't be fooled into thinking that even 80% of the available space can be filled. And I would look to get 6 ton total capacity, which includes a 1 ton 'reserve tank' shelf where the pellets can sit and be manually pushed down to the augur which would give you an extra couple of weeks heating. Rates for 5+ tons are much more competitive. Be warned that some companies won't come out for less than 3 tons blown deliveries.

    2. Really quiz any provider hard on the install costs and what is involved! I've spent an INCREDIBLE amount on the whole process, and the labour element seems really hard to justify in retrospect. I'm convinced they price (as expected) off the back of the RHI element. If I could have paid day rates etc., I'd have been streets ahead.

    3. Make sure you understand the demands of the flue, and how high it needs to be etc. ...

    All the best and good luck! Will think of some more stuff I know in the next few days ...
    • CommentAuthorJonG
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2014
     
    RC bear in mind that under the RHI, if you do use the WB for heating or HW you will have to be metered, which apart from being an extra cost will reduce your RHI deemed payments.

    WB's are often better as space heaters alone in an RHI situation, that way if you use lose less fuel through better insulation you still get the deemed amount regardless, otherwise you will only get the metered amount of heat used capped at the EPC value as a maximum.
  3.  
    Thanks owl man that is reassuring, it makes a lot of sense and also means our DHW cylinder in the house can remain where it is.

    Thank you Scrimper for your advice. I will explore the store sizing, I was hoping to build a silo within the garage however 5tons plus is quite a size, and weight! Also need to explore installation costs as I was working on a similar price to a wood stove, plumbing all done so would be the boiler and flue to sort. Flue is being designed as part of the new roof so should be ok.

    JonG, interesting you raise this. I have trawled through what PDF articles are online and it all refers to fossil fuel back up heat sources. It says somewhere that open fires are fine however no mention whatsoever of back boiler of wood stove? Is this mentioned elsewhere? Also it permits an immersion heater as backup, can I presume that an immersion run from spare power from solar pv would therefore be ok?
    • CommentAuthorJonG
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2014
     
    The main reason that back boilers and stoves didn't make the RHI cut is because there is little to prevent a user form burning coal, which is obviously fossil fuel.

    It is a grey area and you could challenge it, but it seems likely that they would require metering to preclude fossil burning on the stove.
  4.  
    So to clarify, a wood stove back boiler cannot contribute as a secondry heat source to a thermal store on a biomass pellet boiler heated house? That's the bit I can't find any written info on.
    • CommentAuthorscrimper
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2014
     
    Re: silo sizing. Mine is effectively in an old garage. The total area for the silo is 2.4m long, by 2.4m wide by 2.4m high ... which I thought would be good for 5-6 tons, but turns out will probably struggle to fit 3 - 4 tons!

    I wish now that I had sunk the augur ... just one half morning with a digger scooping out a 600mm deep trench (2.4m long x 1m wide) would have nearly doubled my capacity and made the world of difference ...
    • CommentAuthorJonG
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2014
     
    Hi RC, in the original announcement doc dated 12.07.13, it was confirmed that metering would be required:

    "If the renewable heating system is installed alongside another fossil fuel or renewable space heating system (this includes hybrid systems)"

    You could ring the advice line and check, but given the possibility of burning coal on a wood burner I think this will be their position.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2014
     
    My gut feeling, and it's just an opinion mind, re woodstoves is just have the stove as a space heater by all means, and forget about the boiler bit. By the time you've got, and kept, the boiler hot enough to circulate the HW to a coil in a large store, enough to give meaningful results you may well "fry" in the room where the stove is located.
    If you insist on a boiler model and want to transfer a bit of heat elsewhere in the property, then simply put it on couple of heat leak rads e.g. towel rads., on a gravity loop.
    Just keeping the stove as a simple room heater is my preferred option though. The stove is cheaper too, and with no convoluted pipe runs to install.
    The better boiler stoves are expensive because they are not just a normal wood stove that the manufacturer has decided to adapt and put a wrap around water jacket inside. They, the better ones, have a more efficient flue gas internal structure to give better results, but they come with a price tag to match, because they are designed from the outset to do that job.
    So, IMO keep it simple, use the pellet boiler to do the winter CH and DHW, with the wood stove for aesthetics plus additional home heat, reducing your buffer/pellet boiler demand.
    For Spring and Summer use the wood stove to take off the chill, with solar DHW with immersion as back up.
    In summer it's straight forward Solar DHW all the way, either ST or PV, both work fine.
    • CommentAuthorGotanewlife
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2014 edited
     
    Posted By: restorationcoupleplumbing all done so would be the boiler and flue to sort.
    Watch out here - my plumbing was 'done' and then I spent close to £1500 on additional plumbing MATERIALS in order to DIY install my 40kW wood boiler and 2500 ltr tank ie that is after all the primary components were bought. So - read Scrimpers post point 2 AGAIN and Again and again. Good luck.
  5.  
    Thanks for all comments so far. I am looking into the storage as I only originally planned to sacrifice 2-3 m3 of the building. If pellet deliveries are at a 4 tonne minimum then we are going to need to rethink.

    I think we have very much come round to thinking as owlman has suggested above. Amazing how plans can all change so quickly! As it stands, I think we will look at installing a standard wood burner rather than a boiler, immersion back up/top up via solar PV and switch from the current oil boiler once we have git our head round the biomass/RHI/pellet storage demands.

    Key decision to help progress is the store. My thoughts at present are to look at a smaller 400-500l store, we would have PV immersion input, potential solar thermal if desired and the boiler. Therefore as no longer looking at wood stove with back boiler will we be ok with the smalller store? Hoping that this way in the summer the PV will just keep the top of the cylinder hot to allow for DHW via the heat exchanger. (with boiler as back up).

    Any thoughts?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2014
     
    Can you measure your current DHW needs?
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2014
     
    Restorationcouple - we have a similar set-up here. We have a wood pellet boiler, solar thermal panels (FP), a 300 litre thermal store and a separate 180 litre DHW cylinder. Originally we just had the thermal store to supply the C/H system and DHW but it didn't work at all well. We have a 3 ton pellet store but (as has been pointed out above) we dare not let that drop much below about 0.5 ton as the flow will cease; hence we get 2.5 ton deliveries. We have built up a good relationship with our pellet supplier and he understands our situation. We have been buying from him since his was quite a small business and it has now taken off, but as he makes several deliveries in our area he doesn't mind us having less than 3 tons which is their "declared" minimum delivery. You may find a similar situation where you are.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2014
     
    Jeff
    Would you be willing to let us know what price you pay for pellets, and how they have changed since you started buying them?
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2014
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaJeff
    Would you be willing to let us know what price you pay for pellets, and how they have changed since you started buying them?


    Yes ok. Back in 2009 we paid £170 per ton and for our latest delivery (last week) we paid £220 per ton (bulk, blown delivery in both cases). (FYI it has been £220 per ton since April 2012). There is no real justification for large price rises IMO but my worry is that the price of pellets will inevitably be "index linked" to heating oil prices.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2014
     
    So it has gone from 3.4p/kWh to 4.4p/kWh

    Generally energy prices are kept low because of the cheapness of coal, which is currently about £40/tonne. I think Thermal Coal is about 8 kWh/kg, so that will be 0.5p/kWh.
    • CommentAuthorscrimper
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2014
     
    Great post Owlman (esp. the bit about frying inside while while waiting for DHW!) ... wish again that I had been able to read that (and act on it) a year ago before I went through much convoluted plotting as to how to leverage the maximum out of a wood stove ... e.g. many hours spent researching Broseley stoves + back boilers etc.

    Luckily someone pointed out to me the £1,000+ cost of 15m of district heating pipe, and how much 'free' wood I'd have to burn for DHW to pay that back ...
    • CommentAuthorJonG
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2014
     
    RC IF you can confirm heat loss, size of boiler and kWh required per annum for heating and hot water we can comment better on store and buffer size. Don't take the values from the EPC they will be around 30% low.

    The buffer should be sized to permit the boiler to operate at full whack for 20-30 mins so that boiler can go through s full burn cycle without cycling off. If you confirm boiler output this can calculated.

    Our clients are buying at around £200 a ton, but this is for larger deliveries.
  6.  
    I will have a chat with the plumber as he is here tomorrow and see if we can get some more accurate figures for heating demands. JonG, are you meaning heat loss from store or house?

    Can anyone else comment on the single thermal store with heat exchanger v two cylinder options?

    JeffB, What was the cause of the poor DHW performance, was it via coil or heat exchanger?
    • CommentAuthorJonG
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2014
     
    If possible we will always go with a HW cylinder and buffer as separates. Its easy then to back the cylinder up with an immersion either for PV dumping, plus you have redundancy on the HW side in case of an issue.

    If you size it with a heat pump coil, you can drop the buffer temp over the summer and save energy, and use the weather compensation feature of the boiler (if it has it) with the bottom of the curve at around 55 deg and still recover the cylinder contents.

    I am talking about house heat loss.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2014
     
    Posted By: JonG</cite>If possible we will always go with a HW cylinder and buffer as separates.

    This is more or less what I've done. Logwood boiler,- 2500l store for CH and in winter DHW via an external PHx. The mains water supply side of the PHx is directed via a SS pressurised solar cyl, so in winter with minimal solar gain it acts as a mains pre heat before entering the PHx. In summer a simple change lever directs it, the hot mains, straight to the DHW supply and the PHx is then redundant. In the spring and autumn if we don't get quite enough solar then I top up with Immersion.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2014
     
    Posted By: restorationcoupleI will have a chat with the plumber as he is here tomorrow and see if we can get some more accurate figures for heating demands. JonG, are you meaning heat loss from store or house?

    Can anyone else comment on the single thermal store with heat exchanger v two cylinder options?

    JeffB, What was the cause of the poor DHW performance, was it via coil or heat exchanger?


    Restorationcouple - it was via a coil. With hindsight I think the thermal store at 300 litres is undersized and during the winter months we ended up with a "worst of both worlds" situation i.e. the C/H robbed heat from the store so quickly that the DHW was tepid rather than hot. The boiler could probably have coped ok if I had allowed it to burn all day long but I was too mean for that and had the water temperature set at 55C rather than 65+C!

    Having installed a separate smaller DHW cylinder has made a big difference. We now have ample DHW (too much in the summer thanks to oversized solar thermal panels - I am installing a DIY heat dump at the moment!) and the thermal store does just the C/H alone. Should have gone for this configuration at the beginning.
  7.  
    JeffB is your DHW cylinder fed from the coil/heat exchanger in the larger store first?

    Unfortunately the plumber has said that our mains pressure is not high enough anyway so DHW via a heat exchanger will not be possible. However this does give another reason for us to look at 2 cylinders. Am I right to think that vented will be better if pressure is poor or does that have no relevance?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2014
     
    I have a vented system, I got a twin impeller pump for the shower (cheapest from ScrewFix), it has worked well for the last 6/7 years. I am in a soft water area though.
    • CommentAuthorJeff B
    • CommentTimeMay 16th 2014
     
    Posted By: restorationcoupleJeffB is your DHW cylinder fed from the coil/heat exchanger in the larger store first?


    No, direct from the rising main. I have thought about diverting the CW supply through the thermal store in the summer months as a preheat, as the TS is acting as a heat dump for the solar thermal panels. Haven't done anything about it though as I have lots of other projects on the go!
  8.  
    Right, after spending £15 on a gauge I will only use once, I now know that the mains pressure is 2.2bar and with the use of a measuring jug, the flow rate is approx 13l/min.

    Does this sound like it would work with a thermal store/heat exchanger setup? I think for now I am going to put my faith in a single large cylinder and then if really necessary we will separate the DHW.

    Main reasons are that we could do with removing the current airing cupboard and already have 2 brand new showers that are designed for high pressure hot water. With this in mind does a 500l thermal store sound a sensible size and not too much trouble to keep at temp in the summer with solar thermal or pv immersion? We currently have the oil boiler as back up and will hopefully be switching to biomass in the future.

    Any thoughts?
    • CommentAuthorcjiruk
    • CommentTimeMay 20th 2014
     
    Hi

    Re : "JonG, interesting you raise this. I have trawled through what PDF articles are online and it all refers to fossil fuel back up heat sources. It says somewhere that open fires are fine however no mention whatsoever of back boiler of wood stove? Is this mentioned elsewhere? Also it permits an immersion heater as backup, can I presume that an immersion run from spare power from solar pv would therefore be ok?"


    Are ImmerSun PV exports allowed to heat my immerser in my DHW tank currently heated by my Biomass pellet boiler? Is this deemed a back up source?

    Thanks

    J
   
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