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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2014
     
    So what do the biochemists amongst us have to say about Rainshow'r dechlorination products such as their KDF filter?
    http://www.rainshowermfg.com/page16/page25/page31/page31.html
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2014
     
    Only tests can show how effectively the product removes chlorine. However, the principle (reducing an oxidant, such as chlorine, with a zinc-copper couple) is well known.

    But why bother? When you take a shower, do you experience any bad effects that you attribute to chlorine? You are exposed to far more chlorine when you swim in a chlorinated pool.

    The best scientific reference that the manufacturers can find, provides no evidence that chlorine is harmful at these levels. It is not a cumulative poison. If you are OK after 10 days exposure you should be OK after 10 years.

    I'd be more worried about the water you drink. If there are organic compounds in the water, chlorine can react with them to produce carcinogens. It is hard to quantify the risk, but a lot of people use an active carbon filter to remove such compounds from their drinking water.

    Most important of all, in some areas it is essential to filter the tapwater, to make a decent cup of tea.
  1.  
    Of course it is a cumulative poison, it is a halogen displacement and will displace iodine etc affecting thyroid function

    Filter both shower and drinking water
    • CommentAuthorSprocket
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2014 edited
     
    Why do you want to remove free chlorine?
    If it were a swimming pool you would usually be trying to add/maintain it.
    Personally I would consider it pretty harmless (though some of it's reaction products are less harmless - but how likely are you to have significant amounts of them?)

    If I wanted rid of it from a large volume of cold water I would probably use an activated carbon filter. Or UV.
    But it depends how much you have, how much you need to reduce it by, and what your flow rates at treatment are.
    A carbon filter needs maintenance/replacement regularly depending on use too.

    Why the shower water particularly? It's not like you drink it anyway.
    Do you use laundry agents that contain bleach? They would expose you to much higher levels.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2014 edited
     
    Mostly to avoid breathing it in or getting it in your eyes during showering or bathing apparently. Add pesticides to the list too. Mainly it's driven by a co-cowner but I'm also partial to the precautionary principle (whilst also not wanting to complicate life or our plumbing unnecessarily).

    I think we may have a lot to learn about the relationship between cleaning, health and the microorganisms on our skin too. I doubt chlorine is good for the microbial populations on our skin.

    It would be the shower and bath. Personally I shower myself nearly every day, even if it's just 2 mins to freshen up in the morning. I use soap nuts and soda crystals to do my washing (highly recommended).

    If I built my own swimming pool I'd probably treat it with salt or something (and while I shower every day I don't go swimming every day -- mind you when I do I tend to get sore eyes)

    I didn't know UV could rid water of chlorine. I'd much prefer that to changing bloody filters constantly.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2014
     
    Posted By: rhamduIt is not a cumulative poison.


    Posted By: VictorianecoOf course it is a cumulative poison,


    So, diametrically opposed points of view. :bigsmile:

    Do either of you care to post refereed, published references to back up your assertions?

    My naive understanding of water board policy is that they put enough chlorine in to sterilise the public mains and that if you can still detect a noticeable amount at the point of delivery they will investigate the fault when reported. Am I wrong and/or is the policy insufficient?
  2.  
    We all know the reason for adding chlorine is to kill the bacteria in the water supply particularly as it takes a long journey from the reservoirs/treatment plants, you have leaks where water goes out, bugs get in etc.

    That does not mean that chlorine no matter what the level set by the water board is safe on a long term basis. Yes it is better than having various bugs enter your drinking/water supply BUT that still doesn't make chlorine safe

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=chlorine+thyroid+function&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gfe_rd=cr&ei=myS3U7XJFYHR8gfm2ICoAw

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=is+skin+an+organ%3F&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&channel=sb&gfe_rd=cr&ei=OSW3U4PgOoHR8gfm2ICoAw#channel=sb&q=is+chlorine+bad+for+your+skin&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official

    Take your pick of any article or reference from the above, make your own informed choice.

    UV would need to operate at a slow speed so not sure how practical in-house?

    Anyhow, at steam the chlorine is readily absorbed through the biggest organ of your body. Your skin!

    Arguments against filtering seem to be based on maintenance.... It's not hard to change an inline carbon cartridge on your drinking taps nor to add a screw on shower filter

    Whole house carbon filter could be good but how much would be wasted? You don't need to filter WC water, WM water, dish washer etc etc
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJul 4th 2014
     
    What is the risk, having removed chlorine from the shower water, that water standing within the shower head could be a breeding ground for legionella?
  3.  
    Well I've never heard of that, but I'm pretty sure this is why you change them every 6 months and this is why they are at point of use.

    They have as much chance as becoming a breeding ground as a tap or a shower head do they not?

    Surely they would be banned outright if there was a proven risk?
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2014 edited
     
    http://www.all4women.co.za/health/health-articles/drinking-water-purifiers-the-hidden-dangers

    "Dangers of removing chlorine from drinking water

    However, chlorine has been added to water for a purpose; to protect your health from dangerous bacteria which cannot breed in chlorinated water! By removing the chlorine, you can re-create a situation in which these dangerous bacteria can breed freely, and this is what some (not all) water purifiers do.

    Durban Municipal water experts have been quoted as saying that some water purifiers become breeding grounds for bacteria with the unintended result that clean tap water is turned into water that is not even fit for recreational purposes.

    The municipality is suffiently concerned that it has appealed to residents with water purifying systems to allow the municipality to test the filtered water they are drinking.

    According to Neil Macleod, Head of Water and Sanitation, eThekwini Municipality, some home water purifying systems use activated carbon as the filtering mechanism. The concern here is that such filters do remove chlorine but they can also lead to an explosion in the growth of bacteria.

    They have been similar warnings from the US State of Minnesota, where the Department of Health has warned against assuming that home filtered water is better than unfiltered water.

    We asked Neil Macleod if the problem lies in the Carbon filter or in the water sitting around after de-chlorination:

    "Any water filter that removes the disinfecting agent (which is chlorine in most cities in the world) exposes the users to risk of bacterial infection, unless the water temperature is very cold - say less that 6 degrees centigrade - and the bacteria are not viable. Carbon filters not only remove the chlorine but also provide food and ideal places for the bacteria to grow!"
    • CommentAuthorSprocket
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2014
     
    I think (IMHO) legionella in shower head risk is probably insignificant just because of the daily use and/or drying out involved. Standing water and legionella are not usually an issue. It takes a very specific environment.

    Sames goes for filter. The main reason to change a carbon is because it loses effectiveness as it filters... depending on what it filters out. Good carbon filters can also remove/reduce heavy metals and maybe some organics if they represent. etc

    A good starting point is to look at local water testing results. Water companies usually make these freely available on their web site ... Bristol water does for example. Our water looks very good although it is quite hard (tho apart from scale issues that is not all bad).
    • CommentAuthorSprocket
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2014
     
    I just wanted to 2nd what Cwatters said. Personally I would definitely prefer to have the Chlorine than not.
    We also keep plain ordinary bleach around (that's all the chlorine in water is after all) and I would not be without it for very occasional sensible use but that use probably exposes us to much more free chlorine than showering does.

    Our tap-water is less than 0.5 ppm (ie. 0.5 mg/litre) fresh from the tap. That quickly dissipates if you heat the water or leave it to stand for bit.

    Swimming pools are interesting. That industry has a lot of quackery and snake-oil water treatments. There is little I would trust apart from Chlorine for that job. You need some residual disinfection in the water so Ozone or UV alone won't do it... and Ozone and UV both remove your free chlorine so if you combine them you have to be careful. You should see what grows in pool filters (where UV and Ozone can't reach) given half a chance.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2014
     
    I had to clean out the DE filer at the Sheffield YMCA, worst job I have ever had. I have no idea what those young men got up to in the spa bath.
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2014
     
    Posted By: SprocketSwimming pools are interesting. That industry has a lot of quackery and snake-oil water treatments. There is little I would trust apart from Chlorine for that job. You need some residual disinfection in the water so Ozone or UV alone won't do it... and Ozone and UV both remove your free chlorine so if you combine them you have to be careful. You should see what grows in pool filters (where UV and Ozone can't reach) given half a chance.

    Speaking of pools, I recall now that if we have any money when we've finished the house we've been considering building a natural pool, which takes a few tips from nature on filtration and uses plants and animals to keep the water clean:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpZ9s7RpAr0
  4.  
    I speak from experience having used filtered tap water and filtered shower water for the last 7 years or so and I'm still here today.
    • CommentAuthorTriassic
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2014
     
    I've lasted over 50 years only drinking corporation pop!
    • CommentAuthorSprocket
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2014
     
    > I recall now that if we have any money when we've finished the house

    Ha ha ha ha... great joke.

    1) having some money left
    2) finishing the house

    also interesting to note that no-one has gone anywhere near ST's comment!
  5.  
    Triassic I'm sure drinking chlorinated water won't kill you long term but it is proven that chlorine affects thyroid function.

    For somebody who is hypothyroid like myself any small changes I can make I do...
    • CommentAuthorShevek
    • CommentTimeJul 5th 2014
     
    Hehe, yes, we started in April 2013 and we're well over budget!
    • CommentAuthorSprocket
    • CommentTimeJul 6th 2014
     
    > chlorine affects thyroid function.

    Hi Victorineco,

    Iodine (either form salt or from other things in your environment) obviously can directly affect thyroid function. I have heard but not seen proof that Bromine (as Bromide) can too.

    I would have thought that further suspect would be chloride rather than chlorine directly (and also rather than OCl/HOCl ions as you would get from Chlorine in water). Even if free chlorine is reduced to chloride by it's environment there would still be insignificant amount of the chloride from this rather than e.g.. from salt in your diet so chlorine in water seems unlikely to be an issue.

    Have you got a reference for that kind of thing with chlorine? I found this (which says no effect) but it's not exactly a big sample size).

    I http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1567021/
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2014
     
    The human body is about 0.2% chlorine, mostly in the form of chloride ions (as found in common salt). One would only expect toxic effects when the body is exposed to chlorine in forms that are not already there in large quantities - for example, chlorine gas, or various chlorinated organic compounds.

    There is very little evidence of chlorine gas penetrating any further into the body than the mucous membranes of the respiratory tract. Here it can cause irritation and, at higher concentrations, serious damage. But it is unlikely to reach the blood stream or the thyroid unreacted.

    This review of chlorine toxicity http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp172-c3.pdf finds little or no evidence of toxic effects from low levels (0.5ppm) of chlorine gas, even among workers in chlorine plants who are potentially exposed for many hours a day throughout their working life.

    Clearly, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and there are many aspects of possible chlorine toxicity that have never been investigated. For example, inhaled chlorine could form chlorinated organic compounds similar to those which are found in small quantities in chlorinated water supplies. Nobody seems to have looked into this, but I think the reason is that the amounts formed are likely to be very small compared with those which enter our bodies in drinking water.

    Obviously, even in the absence of firm evidence, the precautionary principle might be reason enough for filtering shower water. But the case for filtering drinking water is stronger.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJul 7th 2014
     
    Posted By: Sprocketalso interesting to note that no-one has gone anywhere near ST's comment!
    Probably best in these politically correct times or we will all be dropping back into 1970s language. :wink:
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