Green Building Forum - Vacuum Cleaner power limits

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

tony — Fri, 22 Aug 2014 23:38:59 +0100

The EEC has just hit us with power limits for vacuum cleaners.

Do they realise that all that energy finishes up inside the homes as heat? the majority of vacuuming happens indoors during the heating season and only a very tiny proportion outdoors with the energy totally wasted.

I think it would be a good idea if it was helping reduce energy use but is it? There are also downsides to not cleaning so effectively.

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

SteamyTea — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 07:47:00 +0100

My vacuum cleaner is a 1600W model, as long as it is emptied, it works well. Not cleaning out the coarse filter stops it working.
There has been talk about things like asthma and other allergies being caused by our houses being too clean, so there may be a health benefit. So it may be a good thing.
But would the extra 400 watts for a few minutes a day really make a big enough difference overall?

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

db8000 — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 09:32:09 +0100

Why does the majority of vacuuming happen during the heating season? Do most people not bother during the summer?

I'll have to inform my wife of this when I don't do it this weekend...

Otherwise, why pick on vacuum cleaners? Why don't we limit all cars to 1600cc. Limit the oven to 160degrees. Etc.

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

DarylP — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 09:33:15 +0100

... multiplied by how many million homes in the EU? Yes!
What is wrong with encouraging mfr's to improve efficiency of their products, just as boilers, cars etc have ?

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

SteamyTea — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 09:54:12 +0100

I doubt there is really much difference between using a 2kW model compared to a 1.6kW model. I would think that most people would take the same amount of time cleaning regardless.

Environmentally, what would make the biggest difference is swapping cleaning products for elbow grease. I see this at work, some people think that the only way to clean an industrial kitchen is to use chemical cleaners, and lots of them, and there is always a better product to try. I find more changing the water in the bucket more often is better.

I hate the noise vacuum cleaners make, so a smaller motor is a good thing.

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

HalcyonRichard — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:04:54 +0100

What if lower power vacuum cleaners are used for longer meaning more energy used overall ?

Do not forget the now disproven advice that showers use less water/energy than having a bath. After decades of the wrong advice - gained from asking people how long they showered for. Then a true scientist/engineer actually monitored the amount and temperature of water used. Guess what more water and energy used than the average bath. This was due to people actually showering for longer than they thought they did.

I wonder what evidence the EU used to base their decision on ?

Richard

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

Gotanewlife — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:19:21 +0100

Better buy a decent one quick then, maybe 2 and stockpile one for the future, maybe 3 or 4 because they will make unique presents for loved ones in a few years......

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

Ed Davies — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:26:17 +0100

Posted By: DarylPWhat is wrong with encouraging mfr's to improve efficiency of their products, just as boilers

Exactly. Arbitrarily cutting off at a particular power level isn't in itself going to help much but if it means that in the long run manufacturers make more suckey vacuum cleaners within the power limit it's probably to the good.

However, maybe other people use vacuum cleaners more than me (!) but I can't help feeling the difference is too trivial to be worth worrying about. Anybody done any arithmetic?

I do worry about the level of detailed regulation our (UK, Europe, the West in general) is drifting into. Party because it tends to inhibit innovation - at best encouraging small incremental changes. Also because it tends to have perverse effects. Suppose, for example, the ruling results in the manufacturers using rare-earth magnets which pushes the price of those materials up reducing the uptake of EVs and wind turbines thereby resulting in a net increase in â€œenergyâ€ use.

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

HalcyonRichard — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 11:47:54 +0100

Well Said. The superficial nature of reduce max power therefore reduce consumption is laughable. Using time and energy to come up with this means far bigger and better opportunities will be missed. Good idea is to make them remove one piece of legilation for every new one they bring in - It might concentrate their minds.

Richard

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

Nick Parsons — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 13:33:17 +0100

It sucks.

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

Nick Parsons — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 13:33:41 +0100

....but not so well......

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

barney — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 13:45:46 +0100

Isn't this all about the specific fan power - ie limiting the number of watts required to shift a litre of air at defined parameters

We don't have any problem with it when discussing MVHR - but don't see the same logic when discussing cleaners

I'd expect it to drive improvements in both motor technology and fan efficiency - which will save energy based on comparable performance with todays 2kW offerings

If we follow the logic in the OP why do we need efficient fridges and freezers ?

Regards

Barney

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

Ed Davies — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:10:55 +0100

Posted By: barneyIf we follow the logic in the OP why do we need efficient fridges and freezers ?

Good question. If a bit more PV is cheaper than a yet more efficient fridge or freezer then shouldn't that be used as it'll offset the less efficient f/f in the summer and the difference in heating efficiency of gas/oil/hp vs effectively direct electrical heating in the heating season?

It'd certainly be nutty to spend lots of money on a very efficient fridge or freezer then heat for a significant part of the year with direct electric heating, even night storage.

I plan to have decently efficient fridge and freezer in my off-grid home but certainly won't spend megabucks on ++++++++++++ rated ones. It just isn't worth it.

The problem, of course, is getting people to spend the money saved by a slightly less efficient fridge on PV (or some other energy harvesting/saving measure) rather than on a flight to Spain or something.

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

Ed Davies — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:24:50 +0100

Posted By: barney: â€œIsn't this all about the specific fan power - ie limiting the number of watts required to shift a litre of air at defined parametersâ€

I don't think so. Sorry, this is the Daily Mail but: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/money/news/article-2730642/Buy-powerful-vacuum-cleaner-BANNED-New-EU-rules-ban-best-models-September-warns-Which.html says the limit is just 1600 W, nothing about SFP.

â€œWe don't have any problem with it when discussing MVHRâ€¦â€

Speak for yourself. Again it's just an arbitrary limit - could there not be cases where MVHR is worthwhile but can't quite meet the SFP limits for some reason (old building with very bendy ducts or special reason for particular filters or something)? Would you really want somebody to have to put another ventilation system in as well, never to be used, or whatever the consequences would be?

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

HalcyonRichard — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:30:14 +0100

Hi Barney,
The top 7 rated vacuum cleaners rated by which include 5 that will now be "banned". And isn't it the wrong way round to ban something in the hope of something better coming along ? I thought motor and fan technology were pretty efficient any way. Why not set up an R&D unit to improve the technology and then open source it to manufacturers.

This seems to me like a first glance reaction from the legislators. What if motor and fan effieciency are as good as it gets ? How much energy do they hope to save ? And what will actually happen ? In three years they will lower the limit again so all the work put in to new designs in the next three years will be wasted (or why bother developing something you can only sell for three years ?)

I think the problem is the legislators do not have to pay for the consequences of the regulations. And it costs them nothing to implement them. The costs will fall on the manufacturers and customers. It's a one way bet for the legislators. Nothing for them to lose.

Efficiency can be measured in many ways. My guess is that energy input versus cleaning/pickup won't be one of them.

Richard

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

owlman — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:35:57 +0100

Posted By: HalcyonRichard...Guess what more water and energy used than the average bath. This was due to people actually showering for longer than they thought they did.

I guess the advisors never heard of sharing, (a bath that is), either.

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

SteamyTea — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:36:12 +0100

What happens if you buy 2 1.6 kW vacuums and use them at the same time?

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

barney — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:58:58 +0100

OK - the consumer will dictate the performance. The legislation will limit the input power

The manufactureres will need to improve efficiency to balance those demands.

So, the outcome is a more efficient cleaner that uses less energy to do the same job ? - multiplied by millions of units across Europe

I don't see the problem

Regards

Barney

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

owlman — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 14:59:49 +0100

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

owlman — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 15:01:07 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTeaWhat happens if you buy 2 1.6 kW vacuums and use them at the same time?

You've either got OCD or you're mad.

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

barney — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 15:02:38 +0100

Well ST, you finish the job in half the time and you'll still see the energy saving based on improved efficiency

Regards

Barney

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

SteamyTea — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 15:07:11 +0100

Posted By: owlmanYou've either got OCD or you're mad

Or your my sister, who vacuums every day, has separate machines for downstairs and upstairs. Suspect she has an affair with the Dyson 'engineer'. Or the carpet fitter.
On the other hand, my Hoover's last me decades.

As electric motors come in standard sizes, how hard can it be to put an upgraded motor in. I would give a 3kW model a go, 9 kW would be even better.

How does this legislation affect commercial models. Will it be like the light bulbs, easy to get around.

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

ted — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 15:38:51 +0100

This is the EU take on it: https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/rebuttal/consumer-will-get-better-vacuum-cleaners-ever

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

HalcyonRichard — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:05:54 +0100

Hi,
Ted that is very interesting and informative. So they are limiting power and doing a dust pick up test. Looks like they think that's sorted the problem. What they have not done and have not measured is a real life test. What is needed to convince me is a proper test in homes. Measure the energy used by an appliance to clean a house then compare the results. Limiting power to 1600 watts may be the best way to achieve lowest energy use per house clean. But ( and I will put money on this ) no one knows not even the EU. If anyone can find that data I will be grateful. If you have a light weight manoverable cleaner it will be quicker. If you have a wider machine it will be quicker - up to a certain size. If you have a quick nozel change it will be quicker. If you have a larger motor it will be quicker - up to a certain size. They state no where how long it will take to complete a house clean.

The Rover SD came in two engine sizes 2600 cc and 3500 cc. The more powerful engine had better economy. So engine size is not the be all and end all.

The TPI thermostat was and is lauded as an energy saver for heating systems. Saves 10 % or more it says on the tin. Building research tested them in real homes with real people and found no benefit whatsoever. That saved me Â£100.

This is the simple non scientific approach from the EU. Wasteful in the extreme. When are they going to look at their legislative efficiency

Richard

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

SteamyTea — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 16:09:22 +0100

Posted By: HalcyonRichardThe Rover SD came in two engine sizes 2600 cc and 3500 cc. The more powerful engine had better economy. So engine size is not the be all and end all.

Were they reliable enough to last any significant test period.

I agree, without real data there is no way of knowing if it will make any difference.
I wonder how many engineers scientists were involved in this legislation.

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

CWatters — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 19:35:16 +0100

http://www.topten.eu/uploads/File/Vacuum%20cleaners_Policy%20Recommendations_Aug_13.pdf

Quote: "In September 2017, this cap will be tightened to 900W."

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

ted — Sat, 23 Aug 2014 22:45:24 +0100

Posted By: HalcyonRichard They state no where how long it will take to complete a house clean.

The EU calculations are based on 50 hours cleaning per year for a 87m2 dwelling.

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

Paul in Montreal — Sun, 24 Aug 2014 00:42:48 +0100

I have a US-spec Miele vacuum cleaner that's "only" 1100W. It sucks so hard that it is more than sufficient for anything I can throw at it. Motor power is one of those meaningless marketing numbers - remember when amplifiers were rated by such statements as "300W Music Power" or somesuch. Good design is what determines performance, not how much current the motor/heater uses. BTW, we're limited by using a 120V supply so even my shop vac (which was powerful enough to suck vinyl tiles off the floor while we were renovating) is only around 1500W.

So, you people with high voltage supplies, just suck it up :P

Paul in Montreal.

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

owlman — Sun, 24 Aug 2014 12:30:08 +0100

You're right Paul, good design is paramount. Over the years I've found Miele to be the best vacs., I've had several. Their UK after sales is good too. For sheer build quality though Nilfisk were great, their aluminium casing was bombproof.

Vacuum Cleaner power limits

Simon Still — Sun, 24 Aug 2014 12:55:29 +0100

Presumably the current EU 240V Miele's are the same design with a much more powerful motor though? Up to 2200W at the moment.