Thu, 25 Jun 2026 05:40:58 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207874#Comment_207874 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207874#Comment_207874 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 12:26:49 +0100 fostertom Posted By: SeretThis is what the Butterfly Effect is about, since a model can't simulate reality with full accuracy it'll eventually diverge.Don't think so - even with continuous (analogue) and completely accurate data, such as the actual process being studied 'experiences' internally, there is still divergence.

That is the amazing revelation of chaos theory. The actual process, whether or not it's being studied, diverges. It's not just the (inadequate) model that diverges.

But not randomly - although the timing, magnitude and direction of any divergence is completely unpredictable, there is precise pattern 'one level up', within the apparent 'chaos'. The universe is found to be not a clockwork, predictable mechanism, but continually, spontaneously and unpredictably setting off in new directions, hence enabling evolution at all levels.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207877#Comment_207877 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207877#Comment_207877 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 13:11:26 +0100 Seret
The Butterfly Effect is about the sensitivity of models to initial conditions. It's the reason why we can forecast the weather very accurately in the short term, but only in very vague terms over the long term. This is entirely due to the model being inadequate compared to reality. As all models are by definition. That doesn't mean that models can't be accurate enough to be useful. You just have to be aware of their limitations.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207878#Comment_207878 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207878#Comment_207878 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 13:27:17 +0100 HalcyonRichard The Audi plant only uses renewables when in surplus. So this is energy that would otherwise not be used. The conversion efficiency would be about 70%. That is if none of the heat generated is recovered. Other plant in Germany operates when surplus is being generated and pumps gas into the gas supply system. So the plant would not operate 100% of the time. But I do not understand how/why the surplus must be generated quite often.

Richard]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207885#Comment_207885 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207885#Comment_207885 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 14:28:58 +0100 fostertom Posted By: SeretThe Butterfly Effect is about the sensitivity of models to initial conditionsMaybe that's what is understood by 'butterfly effect'. But that's not all there is to it - never mind models, much more significantly, look at the real thing:

Chaos Theory is about the sensitivity of real-life systems to initial conditions.

Except that in real-life systems, there's no such thing as 'initial conditions', except the series of things that the system did previously, and before that, and before that ...]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207888#Comment_207888 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207888#Comment_207888 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 14:44:57 +0100 Seret
The reason it came up is that (unless I've completely misunderstood you) you were earlier advocating for models without boundaries that attempted to simulate everything. My point is that models have inherent limitations and bounds, which you have to be aware of. As I said earlier, the job of a model isn't to uncover fundamental truths, it's to act as a temporary and limited tool to aid our decision making.]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207889#Comment_207889 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207889#Comment_207889 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 14:51:15 +0100 fostertom https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207890#Comment_207890 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207890#Comment_207890 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 15:03:24 +0100 Seret https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207893#Comment_207893 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207893#Comment_207893 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 15:41:51 +0100 SteamyTea ]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207894#Comment_207894 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207894#Comment_207894 Wed, 27 Aug 2014 16:23:17 +0100 fostertom Posted By: Seretperhaps you should write to your MP?Why didn't I think of that?]]> https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207945#Comment_207945 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12478&Focus=207945#Comment_207945 Thu, 28 Aug 2014 14:13:08 +0100 bxman
Audi built the e-gas plant in collaboration with the plant construction specialist ETOGAS GmbH (formerly SolarFuel) and its project partner MT-BioMethan GmbH on a 4,100 m2 (44,132.03 sq ft) plot of land owned by EWE AG. Ground was broken in September 2012, and the topping-out ceremony was celebrated in December. The efficient use of energy flows is the top priority in the production sequence of the plant. The waste heat given off during methanation is used as process energy in the adjacent biogas plant, significantly increasing overall efficiency. In return, this plant supplies the highly concentrated CO2 required as a basic building block for the e-gas. This CO2 thus serves as a raw material and is not emitted to the atmosphere.


It seems that there is also a project to utilize Microoganisms as well
The e-gas project is part of Audi's comprehensive e-fuels strategy. In parallel with the e-gas plant in Werlte, Audi also operates a research facility in Hobbs, New Mexico, USA, for the production of e-ethanol and e-diesel in collaboration with Joule. At this facility, microorganisms use water (brackish, salt or wastewater) sunlight and carbon dioxide to produce high-purity fuels. The strategic goal of these projects is to use CO2 as a raw material for fuels and thus improve the overall footprint substantially. The e-fuels strategy is an important pillar of Audi's sustainability initiative.

full article
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/07/08/audi-opens-renewable-energy-e-gas-plant-in-germany/]]>