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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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  1.  
    I have an area of single storey roof at 30º which faces SSE. It is 5.3m by 3.7m and is unshaded. If I installed PV myself rather than through MCS could I
    a) claim FITs, I guess not!
    b) export electricity and be paid for it?
    c) have it signed off under Part P?
    d) is DIY PV worth it?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    a) no, b) not without huge costs to become an ESCo c) yes but difficult and expensive for DIY d) no, not for grid linked

    Basically it is a "closed shop" now, I am thinking of having a non grid linked small system myself one day.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014 edited
     
    I have a feeling that there are ways to do it, and claim FITs, but not sure how difficult is it. May have to look into it as I feel the same that the MCS is now not worth it. Mainly because the system prices are now lower, as are the payments.

    The company that I worked for got their MCS by fitting a system on the bosses roof. I never checked on the price but seem to remember that it was not ridiculously expensive. James (Ingram) may know as I think he has MCS as a secondary line.
    As for the electrical side, we just used third party electricians. I think there is now an SE component, but again that would be just asking someone to do the calculations. An EPC is 60 to 100 quid.

    I think the high costs comes from trying to do it all and get qualified in every aspect, which is not necessary at all.

    I am hoping that when smart metering comes in that this makes selling power easier. The question is how much should we get paid for it. Should we get wholesale price, retail price, somewhere in the middle, wholesale plus ROCs, retail plus ROCs, ROCs only, should we have to play a transport charge to the DNO. Quite complicated really.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    Another consideration is VAT. AIUI, VAT on an MCS install is 5% whereas if you DIY it'll be 20% (except for new build where you can claim the lot back).
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    At present I see PV as having few benefits in the UK, as our peak demand for electricity is on cold winter evenings. I consider the “investment” the government has made in grants for PV is a waste of money and would have been better spend on other “green” power options. (After ALL homes have been draft proofed.)

    I am waiting for domestic CHP to become a sensible option, and wished that the government pushed it a lot more with at least a 10 years outlook, so that companies that see the payback from developing the systems.
    (On the large scale; wave, tide and wind seems like the best options for the UK, along with as much hypo as we can do.)

    The cost of PV panels would have come down anyway due to the increasing demand from countries where they do make a lot of sense.

    However thinks will start to change if the cost of storing electricity comes down enough, there is a lot of research going on and progress is being made. Given than LEDs lights can run on 12v, how far are we from having DC wiring for lighting and a battery that can be charged by small PV set?

    If I had a Flow battery that could provide my base load recharged on E7 every night, then I would consider PV to be a VERY good option. Once you live outside of towns, there is value from having your own dependable electricity source and people will pay for the “insurance” of not losing power for a few days every few years when the lines blow down.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    Ringi
    You raise some interesting point, fancy starting a thread about it.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    There are some people on ebay offering PV kits with optional MCS. The implication is (but don't say explicitly) that you install it and then they come and approve it. Is that allowed?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    nope but who would know?
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    There is nothing stopping a MCS approved company subcontracting some of the work (e.g. roofing), if they do the design and inspect the result. What to say the work cannot be subcontracted back to the customer?
    • CommentAuthorPeterStarck
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014 edited
     
    Thanks for all the comments. I hadn't thought about looking on Ebay. So you can DIY a PV install and they will do all the MCS paperwork, checking and testing for £400. Very interesting, I'll have to get some quotes and see how much of a saving there is.

    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Full-MCS-Micro-Generation-Certification-Scheme-Registration-for-your-PV-system-/221546302788?pt=UK_Gadgets&hash=item3395304d44
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014 edited
     
    It seems expensive, unless "Reveiw PV system and advise" is very detailed.

    However could be a good option if you are going to be doing roof-work yourself.

    Also what if they don't do their part after you have paid for the PV and installed it?
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    A DIYer could be a subcontractor under MCS subject to meeting the conditions that MCS lay down for that.

    But doing all/most of the electrical work would put you outside the MCS company's ability to self-certifiy under Part P unless they were also a member of one of the new third party certification schemes (as opposed to self-certification). You could still do it under a direct BC notification of course.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    Given that most of the cost of the electrical work is running the cables and then making good etc, there should be a way that allow a DIYer to do that part.

    However I see the real saving, being that there is no need to pay for a sales person and the same labour can be used as for other roof work that is being done at the same time.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    Is this statement on the Ebay advert correct?

    As an example a 4kW PV (16 panels) system will earn you roughly £600 from 'FiTs' per year for 20 years (the length of the scheme). A total of £12,000!!!!

    If so I might be interested in this as I am doing a new (self) build and could do it under direct BC notification as per ted,s comment above.
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    If, and it is a big IF, the kit is MCS/OfGEM approved, and the installer is MCS/OfGEM approved, and they fill in the paperwork 'correctly', then yes...:bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    Joe90,

    You will not even need direct BC notification, unless you are not using a Part P approved person for all your electrical work
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    Another thought.

    What stops someone adding more panels after all the paperwork has been done?
    •  
      CommentAuthorted
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    If you do not register the change with your FiT supplier then, if caught, you will lose your payments and be prosecuted for fraud.
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    ringi, I am planning a new build so its all being covered by the BC officer anyway, I do my own electrics when I can.
  2.  
    Posted By: ringiWhat stops someone adding more panels after all the paperwork has been done?

    What Ted said, plus I think it's highly likely that some form of sanity check is done at least periodically on the Total Generation Meter data. A system that appeared to be performing significantly above spec. might well draw attention to itself?
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeOct 8th 2014
     
    Why not roof integrated pv for a new build?
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2014
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: ringi</cite>Why not roof integrated pv for a new build?</blockquote>

    This is sensible, any suggestions, the roof (garage) will be metal profile sheeting.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2014
     
    You can get trays that are designed for the job or make your own/get your own designed from GRP.
  3.  
    Posted By: ringiWhy not roof integrated pv for a new build?


    It's less efficient as there is less air cooling, and it's also usually more expensive - I know some people much prefer the look but I don't think it makes much difference.

    If this is a standing-seam metal roof covering you can get clamps that attach to the seams for panel mounting without penetrating the roof covering.

    Given that the FIT is now very roughly the same rate as electricity is purchased from the grid, surely for DIY non-MCS to make sense you would have to use pretty much all of your PV generation which will be pretty difficult unless you have a high baseload or some sort of storage. People are reporting having £4 kW systems installed for under £4500 now so I can't see DIY making much sense.

    Ed
    •  
      CommentAuthorjoe90
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2014
     
    I could make my own from GRP. I dont see why the cooling is less as it still stands above the tray its over so getting plenty of air behind? My base load wont be high (two people mostly) so I will have to think hard on whether it is all worth it!!!:confused:
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2014
     
    I don't think the 'cooling issue' is much of a problem, not often, or for long, that we have those clear skies and high temperatures. Add to that, when those conditions do occur, there is generally more more radiation than can be converted to electrical power. It is not a linear calculation.

    Our old mate JS Harris had his integrated and it is very unobtrusive. He is not that far from you John, go and see him, he likes visitors.
  4.  
    I feel strongly that integrated is much more aesthetically pleasing and that your avghouse buyer would feel that way too (if that interested you). So long as the roof isn't flat, any hot air under the panels rises creating a stack like effect/strong draft so integrated would not IMO suffer at any time, though as Steamy points out hardly relevant anyway. Over here in Italy your incentive is higher if the panels are integrated than if what they call semi integrated (mounted parallel with roof) and then semi pays more than the bottom rate where your panels are put on at a different angle to your roof.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2014
     
    On hol, St Ives, saw an integrated roof where panels had been custom made with angled edges to form edge of valley gutter. As each panel consists of multiple square modules, these were laid out to fill the space more or less, with triangular blank infills to make out to the angled edge, all within the perimeter framing and front glass.
    • CommentAuthorbillt
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2014
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaAdd to that, when those conditions do occur, there is generally more more radiation than can be converted to electrical power. It is not a linear calculation.


    What does that mean? PV is essentially linear, more insolation produces more energy, unless it is clipped by the inverter. At very low insolation levels the linearity drops off a bit, but power levels are so low then that it doesn't matter.

    Experience shows that heating does have a significant effect on output. Look up NOCT.

    I have a roof mounted 3.8 kWp system and a 4.4kWP ground mounted system, both mounted at 45 degrees. Midday on a hot sunny day the 3.8kW system shows significant power limitations, whereas the well ventilated 4.4kW system just gets clipped by the inverter. A roof integrated system will get hotter than a roof mounted system, hence will have lower output than a non integrated system in hot sunny conditions.

    It's probably not particularly important overall, but it will give less output.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeOct 9th 2014
     
    You mean free-vent air gap up the back isn't enough to keep cool enough?
   
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