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General: Loop-in lighting circuits - using switch

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    • CommentAuthorYanntoe
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2015
     
    Hi,
    Going to depart from "tradition" and use a loop-in lighting circuit with the loop at the switch rather than the ceiling rose.

    Anyone come across made for purpose switches (rather than using a connector strip in the switch back box)?

    Cheers

    Y
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2015
     
    Typical in commercial installations where conn blocks used in light switches
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2015
     
    Remember to use deeper back boxes to allow space for connectors.
  4.  
    I'm using loop-in at the switch for my lighting circuits and I'll be using Wago connectors in the switch box. Haven't heard of purpose made switches though.
  5.  
    Are wire nuts legal in the UK? This is what everyone in North America uses for in-box connections.

    BTW, what is a "loop-in" lighting circuit? Over here, you might have power fed through the light's box and then use two "hots" to send the power to the switch and back to the hot side of the light - the neutral being fed-thru to the next light. You'd have to make the switch wire as having two live conductors, though, typically by putting black tape around the white (neutral) wire. Is this what you mean by loop-in?

    Otherwise, the power is distributed through the switch boxes and a switched live and unswitched neutral sent to the light.

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2015
     
    I would use a wago connector.

    The ideal is that there is a cable from the switch to each light that contains N+L+E, and the power cable is taken to the switch rather then the light. Sometimes it results in less cable usage. It also allow you to change your mind on how you group lights in a room.

    But it make it hard to retrofit phone alarms...
    • CommentAuthorPaul_B
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2015
     
    Paul in Montreal,

    I am not sure wire nuts are legal in the UK or at least I've never seem them used like they are on "Holmes on Homes" or "This Old House". I think the closest thing is the Wago connector as mentioned by Ringi which I love and use in my projects

    Paul
  8.  
    Yes wire nuts as ok in uk . Just coming back in fashion !
    Live to switch is good. I do it quite a lot . Since ceiling rose pendants are out of
    Fashion it's a pain hiding loop at light location
    I sometime do each outlet to switch or separate light junctions box with all feed back to it giving lots of switching options.
    Some guys 1mm 3wire and earth to everything to give more future proofing also
    • CommentAuthorMackers
    • CommentTimeFeb 22nd 2015
     
    For the light switch just use a double pole switch, this then breaks the live and the neutral. Just make your switches up out of grid switches, this will do away with the need for connectors at the light switch
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2015
     
    Are double-pole light switches commonly available? What are they normally used for?
  11.  
    Wire nuts are horrible - avoid like the plague! Don't much like WAGO either for lots of reasons. Give me those translucent screw terminal blocks or, in Italy, single entry transparent screw terminals every day.

    Invariably I use a screw block in the back of the switch box (obviously just one piece long) - never heard of a double pole electrical light switch but easy enough to use a std fused 13 amp double pole switch instead for the odd occasion but I am not quite sure why one would need to in a lighting circuit.....
  12.  
    Posted By: GotanewlifeWire nuts are horrible - avoid like the plague!


    Funny, I used to think that when I first moved to Canada ... but if you get a good brand, they are really very good and much less fuss to install than terminal blocks. With the right sized nuts, they are easy to add in extra conductors and give a strong connection - though, of course, you need an electrical box that's deep enough for the number of nuts you need.

    Paul in Montreal.
  13.  
    On second thoughts (as currently doing exactly OP intends!) crimp connectors are best because in this scenario it is very hard to imagine wanting to undo it and a tiny red tube takes up less space than anything else, and is easier to fit than screws.

    PiM - perhaps if only ever used for joining 2 wires of same dia and a good make and a jolly big back box and wire striped so still insulated well within wire nut it might be OK....:wink:
  14.  
    Posted By: GotanewlifePiM - perhaps if only ever used for joining 2 wires of same dia and a good make and a jolly big back box and wire striped so still insulated well within wire nut it might be OK....:wink:" alt=":wink:" src="http:///forum114/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/wink.gif" >


    That's pretty much how they're supposed to be used - though some types of nut allow wires of different thickness to be joined - usually this is when connecting the wire from a light fixture to the supply wires in the box.

    Paul in Montreal
    • CommentAuthorMackers
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2015
     
    Ed Davies, they are commonly available from any electrical wholesaler. They are normally used for lighting or for different switches such as 20a DP for isolation of a supply. Look them up, better than connectors
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeFeb 23rd 2015
     
    I trust Wago much more than I trust screw terminals or crimps. The spring pressure will maintain a good contact automatically. It would save installers a lot of time if this type of terminal was fitted to luminaires and other equipment instead of fiddly screws.

    Crimps do save space, particularly on the heavier, multistranded cables (4mm2 up), but you need the right size, the right tool and the right technique.
  17.  
    Wago are approved for maintenance free locations - much better than screw terminals. And can be disassembled if necessary - what's not to like?
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2015
     
    Posted By: jamesingramLive to switch is good. I do it quite a lot . Since ceiling rose pendants are out of fashion it's a pain hiding loop at light location
    I sometime do each outlet to switch or separate light junctions box with all feed back to it giving lots of switching options.
    Some guys 1mm 3wire and earth to everything to give more future proofing also
    My electrician did live to switch (which was a surprise to me) and used wago. I'd have got him to do it all in 3 wire as said by James, far more flexibility - there are some bits I'd love to change but no chance with 2 wire :cry:
  19.  
    Posted By: borpinthere are some bits I'd love to change but no chance with 2 wire


    Sure you can - just install some X10 controllers and you can do what you want, so long as you can get power to your fixtures.

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeFeb 24th 2015
     
    Posted By: Paul in Montreal
    Posted By: borpinthere are some bits I'd love to change but no chance with 2 wire
    Sure you can - just install some X10 controllers and you can do what you want, so long as you can get power to your fixtures.
    As much as I like to fiddle I'm not going down the X10 route :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2015
     
    Posted By: jamesingramLive to switch is good. I do it quite a lot . Since ceiling rose pendants are out of
    Fashion it's a pain hiding loop at light location
    I sometime do each outlet to switch or separate light junctions box with all feed back to it giving lots of switching options.
    Some guys 1mm 3wire and earth to everything to give more future proofing also

    Agree with all that.
    I try to future-proof, but not too hard. Using the same wiring for power supply and control is probably a passing phase. And will the power supply remain 240V or change to 24V? I don't know. But I will drop a 3+earth cable from a junction box to a 2-gang switch. One cable to the switch and you can control two lights.
    Junction boxes can get quite full of wire and Wagos once you are controlling 5 or 6 lights off them - but running all the earths from one 8-pole Wago seems easier to me than wiring the earth through a chain of ceiling roses. And your earthing (CPC continuity) - essential for safety - is no longer dependent on the weakest link in that chain.
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2015
     
    Our lighting wiring is fairly old so it uses separate junction boxes either under the floor or in the loft. It seems like a simpler system and has the advantage that the ceiling rose only contains one set of wires so is a lot smaller and neater than the modern type. However all of the upstairs lights were jammed into two junction boxes together with the loft lights that I'd managed to cram in, so was going to replace them with a Surewire pre wired junction box.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2015
     
    The issue is how do you access the junction boxes? They should be checked every 5 years to confirm all the screws are still tight.
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2015
     
    By lifting a short cut section of floorboard presumably. Can't say I've ever checked them myself.
  25.  
    Posted By: ringiThe issue is how do you access the junction boxes? They should be checked every 5 years to confirm all the screws are still tight.


    Interesting. The electrical code here in Canada explicitly forbids hidden junction boxes because wire can and do come loose. If you can't access the box from the fixture, it's not legal and you would fail an electrical inspection. For those who watch "Holmes on Homes" it's one of his pet peeves.

    Paul in Montreal.
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2015
     
    I'm guessing being able to lift the floorboard 'hatch' was enough to make it accessible, but it would not be done like that now. The junction box itself was mounted on a piece of floorboard nailed in between two noggins in the floor void and has probably been there since the house was built in the 1940s, though the wiring has been replaced at some point as its the modern PVC insulated type not the 1940s rubber stuff that I've found a few dead pieces of.

    Can see the benefit of using the light switch as the junction box, but didn't feel qualified to make any major alterations.

    Ed
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeFeb 25th 2015
     
    OK, another go at quoting from the Electrician's Guide - hope I've got the context right this time:

    4.4.3 Joints and terminations [526]

    …and it follow that these must remain safe and effective throughout the life of the system. With this in mind, regulations on joints include the following:

    …
    5 All joints must be accessible for inspection and testing unless they are buried in compound or encapsulated, are between the cold tail and element of a heater such as pipe tracer or underfloor heating system, or are made by soldering, welding, brazing or compression.
  28.  
    I thought this was the point - UK electrical regs now forbid inaccessible juntion boxes unless they are 'maintenance free'. Screw down terminals don't comply but Wago style clamp terminals do - so you *can* put some Wago junctions in a suitable box in an inaccessible location.

    I don't think 24V will become standard anytime soon - long cable runs become a problem. However, nearly all of my lighting is going to be constant current low voltage LED. My plan is to have an access panel somewhere on each floor (probably, maybe more than that) containing all the drivers. With LED's the drivers are probably more likely to fail than the lamps themselves hence grouping them and making them accessible for replacement.
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeFeb 28th 2015
     
    Is that what 'maintenance free' means of a junction box? I've just replaced two old junction boxes that had many wires crammed into each terminal with two of the pre-wired Surewire boxes. It says 'maintenance free' on the lid, but also 'do not cover'. I was only planning to cover it with some loft insulation, so it won't be inaccessible.

    Ed
    • CommentAuthoratomicbisf
    • CommentTimeFeb 28th 2015
     
    Before. The white cables were my bodging of loft lights into these two junction boxes that controlled all the upstairs lights.
      DSC_0055.JPG

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