Green Building Forum - Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

GarethC — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 11:45:08 +0100

Iron melts at about 1100 degrees C, steel at 1500, aluminium at only 660 according to a website I just checked.

Must be something else to do with the extraction process, perhaps the different way the ores exist in nature.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

fostertom — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 11:45:54 +0100

Posted By: owlmanthe material density and it's use in practice off sets some of those differences

Right - any rule of thumb for how many kg of CF replaces how many kg of steel (or aluminium?). AFAIK it's a factor of 4 or 5?

Then there's cumulative benefits from use of CF - ultralightweight car shells for example require much less power from a smaller (weight and fuel consumption) engine, and everything else - suspension components, brakes etc - much lighter.

I was surprised/shocked at the govt-funded UKplc flagship NCS's lack of interest in eventual recycling of CF. Also lack of interest in future development of CFs - nanotubes etc. And their belief that UK and Germany lead the world in CF/composites - US lagging far behind - not sure I believe that. All seemed complacent.

Any lower-energy processes in sight for production of CF? Direct from amospheric CO2?

Of course, high kWh/kg input matters much less if the slightly degraded process heat can be captured (instead of exhausted to outside or being cooled away from the factory interior by a/c) and used on-site/nearby for a cascade of other heat-using processes, eventually at lowest-grade to heat the neighbouring housing estate.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

renewablejohn — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 11:58:17 +0100

Posted By: GarethCIron melts at about 1100 degrees C, steel at 1500, aluminium at only 660 according to a website I just checked.

Must be something else to do with the extraction process, perhaps the different way the ores exist in nature.

Its only the original extraction of aluminium from ore that has a high energy content. To actually recycle aluminium is low energy due to the low melting point and ability to flow making casting very easy.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

SteamyTea — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 12:13:23 +0100

Posted By: GarethCIron melts at about 1100 degrees C, steel at 1500, aluminium at only 660 according to a website I just checked.

Seems so
http://www.chemguide.co.uk/inorganic/extraction/aluminium.html

Posted By: fostertomRight - any rule of thumb for how many kg of CF replaces how many kg of steel (or aluminium?). AFAIK it's a factor of 4 or 5?

You would have to work that out by tensile/compression/yield point/elastic limit strength, proably Young's Modulus is used. Not a straight swap.

Posted By: fostertomOf course, high kWh/kg input matters much less

or if your energy source is pure RE.

Posted By: fostertomI was surprised/shocked at the govt-funded UKplc flagship NCS's lack of interest in eventual recycling of CF

I looked into this nearly 30 years ago. Generally recycling still allows the polymers to stay intact, it is hard to split a composite matrix up and not damage the fibres. CF is very brittle and shears easily. It is also coated to help it bond to the resins.
I did think of grinding it up and using it as a filler, but then there are really cheap fillers available.

Posted By: fostertomAny lower-energy processes in sight for production of CF? Direct from amospheric CO2?

Are you talking of making the carbon fibres from atmospheric carbon dioxide. You are then dealing with 400 ppm, and if we could do that economically, we should bury it and forget all about it. Best leave that the the trees I think.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

renewablejohn — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 12:20:19 +0100

Just 2 m2 of sunlight and you can melt virtually anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0_nuvPKIi8

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

owlman — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 12:47:44 +0100

SteamyTea 59 minutes ago

".As were most of the chemicals used back then. I used to clean the tooling with toluene, liquid styrene and acetone. I am still waiting to see what happens.

Me too ST.
I used to spray two pack PU. The isocyanates in the catalysts were supposed to be very dangerous. A chemist friend once told me they were less of a problem than some other forms of furniture lacquer AC, Pre CAT etc., as once they had evaporated, usually very rapidly, the lacquer that remained was free of any other longer term "off gassing". I'm not sure if he was right. Anyway I usually made sure I stood well upwind. . Time will tell.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

fostertom — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 19:39:36 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTeaAre you talking of making the carbon fibres from atmospheric carbon dioxide. You are then dealing with 400 ppm, and if we could do that economically, we should bury it and forget all about it

I dunno, having achieved that, might as well use it. Plants very happliy extract carbon @ 400ppm (or even 250-300ppm until a few yrs ago). It would have to be either algae in taks in the Sahara, or bio-mimicry.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

SteamyTea — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 20:18:08 +0100

Yes, plants do achieve it, but at a very slow rate and they use a huge amount of energy to do so.
Without going though the usual chestnut, the efficiency is pretty poor.

If you want a vehicles that can go a long way on a little fuel, get a motorbike.
http://gas2.org/2014/11/05/11-best-fuel-efficient-motorcycles-can-buy-2015/

Not that bikes are that great, they should be a lot better.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

fostertom — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 09:36:20 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTeaThey (plants) use a huge amount of energy to do so.
Without going though the usual chestnut, the efficiency is pretty poor

Yes indeed but as we said

Posted By: SteamyTea
Posted By: fostertomOf course, high kWh/kg input matters much less
... if your energy source is pure RE.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

cjard — Mon, 04 May 2015 06:52:15 +0100

1: What is your present car (make, model, trim, fuel type, age)

2: Annual Mileage

3: What vehicle are you thinking of getting next

4: Dream 'Eco' Vehicle

5: Dream Vehicle

Volvo S60 d5s diesel 11yrs
Was25k now 5k
BMW m5 touring
Zero ds electric motorcycle
BMW m5 touring

Aluminium is essentially made using electrolysis as well as heat, not just heat, so huge amounts of electricity are required. Other materials just require heat, which doesn't necessarily involve electricity

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

SteamyTea — Mon, 04 May 2015 08:31:17 +0100

Right
Think I have everyone on the chart.
Make your own minds up as to where to spend money if you want to save energy and reduce CO2

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

SteveZ — Mon, 04 May 2015 10:56:00 +0100

I found some real world figures for the Auris, after six months driving by a motor journalist. Not 80mpg, but averaging nearer 50!

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/our-cars/toyota-auris-touring-sports/the-final-auris-reckoning/

Our tiddly 1.24 petrol Ford Fiesta has a combined figure of 50mpg according the Ford advertising. Real world figures always below 40. Even if I drive it very carefully and see the average figure of 50 on the computer, measuring brimfill to brimfill gives a figure below that of the computer, generally by ~7%

My 2000 Ford Focus 1.6 (petrol )always returns above 40 mpg and on a longer run at motorway speeds will return 45+

I have no idea what will replace my trusty old car when it goes to that great car park in the sky

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

SteamyTea — Mon, 04 May 2015 11:06:25 +0100

We have all had cars that are better, or worse, than official figures, but you can always work out your own data.

That Honest John report did actually say that around town it was good on fuel, but as most if his mileage was motorway, it was not so great.

Bouncing around Cornish lanes is never going to be great for fuel economy. I would think than a cruise along the M11 is probably pretty good.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

Paul in Montreal — Mon, 04 May 2015 14:36:23 +0100

Posted By: cjardAluminium is essentially made using electrolysis as well as heat, not just heat, so huge amounts of electricity are required. Other materials just require heat, which doesn't necessarily involve electricity

It's not the electrolysis per se - steel is also made in a carbon arc furnace. It's simply the energy containing within Al2O3 is much higher than in Fe2O3 - if you look at the enthalpies of formation of these:

Al2O3: âˆ’1669.8
Fe2O3: âˆ’826
FeO: âˆ’272

The main ore for Al is Bauxite - which is as easy to mine as iron ore, but then it has to be converted to the oxide via sodium hydroxide. Then the Al203 is fluxed with sodium fluoride to give a lower melting point and three electrons are required per atom of aluminium - so it all adds up to a lot of energy. Iron is easy - carbon is able to reduce the oxides to CO, CO2 and liquid iron.

Paul in Montreal.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

Mikel — Mon, 04 May 2015 18:16:26 +0100

We had a Mk1 1.8 petrol Ford Focus which my wife used for commuting and shopping around Cardiff for many years and we averaged about 28 mpg but could get to roughly 40 mpg with frugal long distance driving.

When we moved back down here and started driving round the Cornish lanes, the fuel consumption rose to 32 mpg. With our Mk 2.5 1.8 petrol Focus we now get 36 mpg around the lanes and still only about 40 mpg on a long trip. Unless you are doing a lot of long distance driving, the petrol engine is a lot better for round here. It certainly warms up quickly and compared to the Camper, which takes more than 10 miles to warm up in Winter.

The best that can be said for the official fuel consumption figures is that allows gaming of the Vehicle Excise Duty.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

Fred56 — Mon, 04 May 2015 18:42:29 +0100

My experience is the reverse of Mikel's. On long runs I can achieve 60mpg driving mainly on cruise control. I lived in North Yorkshire and my average was around 54mpg mixed driving. In February we moved down to Cornwall and the day to day economy is way down such that my overall average (it's about 8000 miles since I last reset the computer) is now reading under 50mpg after just three months.
The quality cars have the best technology. I reckon a good gearbox makes a big difference. Mine has a 7 speed dual clutch auto and I let it do the decision making.
Cornwall and Devon are locked into the 1960s in communications of all forms, roads, public transport and the internet is about 12 years behind Yorkshire. Cornwall is trying but also lying about its broadband but Devon is just a total shambles.
The VED rates are daft. My wife's IQ is zero and my car is Â£130 but my car burns less fuel in reality, it is diesel though.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

renewablejohn — Mon, 04 May 2015 20:52:25 +0100

Posted By: Paul in Montreal
Posted By: cjardAluminium is essentially made using electrolysis as well as heat, not just heat, so huge amounts of electricity are required. Other materials just require heat, which doesn't necessarily involve electricity

It's not the electrolysis per se - steel is also made in a carbon arc furnace. It's simply the energy containing within Al2O3 is much higher than in Fe2O3 - if you look at the enthalpies of formation of these:

Al2O3: âˆ’1669.8
Fe2O3: âˆ’826
FeO: âˆ’272

The main ore for Al is Bauxite - which is as easy to mine as iron ore, but then it has to be converted to the oxide via sodium hydroxide. Then the Al203 is fluxed with sodium fluoride to give a lower melting point and three electrons are required per atom of aluminium - so it all adds up to a lot of energy. Iron is easy - carbon is able to reduce the oxides to CO, CO2 and liquid iron.

Paul in Montreal.

Dont underestimate the amount of aluminium which is recycled at far lower energy content

http://www.hydro.com/en/About-aluminium/Aluminium-life-cycle/Recycling/

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

Paul in Montreal — Mon, 04 May 2015 21:19:44 +0100

Posted By: renewablejohnDont underestimate the amount of aluminium which is recycled at far lower energy content

Oh, I'm not! It's just that there was a comparison earlier of the energy cost of new materials. Aluminium is easier to less energy intensive to recycle than steel.

Paul in Montreal.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

cjard — Mon, 04 May 2015 21:33:31 +0100

Posted By: Fred56My wife's IQ is zero

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

SteamyTea — Mon, 04 May 2015 22:08:17 +0100

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

owlman — Tue, 05 May 2015 11:09:41 +0100

He's probably divorced by now.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

fostertom — Tue, 05 May 2015 14:52:19 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTeaBouncing around Cornish lanes is never going to be great for fuel economy. I would think than a cruise along the M11 is probably pretty good.

The opposite in a hybrid. Cornish lanes not unlike urban stop-start, where hybrids are supreme. Hybrids poor on motorways.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

jamesingram — Wed, 06 May 2015 08:52:46 +0100

1. merc 320 cdi diesel 2000
transit 115 t350 2008
Belingo electrique 2000
2 . approx. 4000
5000
1500
3. no plan above should do till they stop moving
4. electric enduro motorbike
5. V8 6.2 l 1976 Ford Falcon XC

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

Chris P Bacon — Wed, 06 May 2015 19:33:04 +0100

What's the embodied energy in your new Auris hybrid ST?

Where does the tipping point occur in terms of buying a new efficient vehicle versus continuing to run an older less efficient vehicle until such time as it is uneconomic to repair it?

Seems like the Auris or Prius hybrids wouldn't be a good choice for me anyway as most of my commute is A road and motorway.

A small diesel such as the Peugeot 208 HDi would seem like a better bet as a commuter vehicle although I have just seen photos of the new model Skoda Superb and it looks very tasty.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

fostertom — Wed, 06 May 2015 19:42:18 +0100

Diesels are about to get punitive road tax because of particulates health effects. The trade's getting ready for plummeting s/h diesel car prices.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

jamesingram — Wed, 06 May 2015 20:06:40 +0100

When someone tail gates me I like to entertain the kids by flooring the accelerator quickly
making the auto drop a gear and surrounding the car behind in black smoke :-)
Oh how we giggle as they drive by later shaking their clenched fists

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

renewablejohn — Wed, 06 May 2015 20:12:58 +0100

Posted By: fostertomDiesels are about to get punitive road tax because of particulates health effects. The trade's getting ready for plummeting s/h diesel car prices.

Thats a real shame as charcoal slurry made from torrefied wood is a very effective renewable transport alternative to diesel fuel if only Ofgem could make up its mind what duty rate to apply.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

SteamyTea — Wed, 06 May 2015 23:16:03 +0100

Posted By: Chris P BaconWhat's the embodied energy in your new Auris hybrid ST?

I not got a new Auris, just used it as an example.

Google hit number one (about Prius) was this one:
http://www.motherearthnews.com/green-transportation/embodied-energy-prius-vs-hummer-zb0z1206zmat.aspx

No idea if it is true or not. Not actually read it all, got bored.

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

SteamyTea — Tue, 12 May 2015 15:35:29 +0100

Bit in the Torygraph about driving, nothing new though:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shopping-and-consumer-news/11597205/Bad-driving-habits-cost-UK-motorists-700-million-a-year.html

Changing your car to a more fuel efficent one

the souter — Wed, 13 May 2015 01:08:02 +0100

Very late in the day; can I give you our vital stats?

1. BMW 328i, rust edition, P, 1997
BMW M3, lightweight, P, 1996
. Seat Alhambra, 1.9 haute luxo, D, 2000
. VW Touran, 1.9 basic, D, 2010

2. 3k
. 1k
. 12k
. 20k

3. Alhambra will need replaced soon (240k miles)
prob with another one, same age, lesser miles.

4. i8

5. Mr. Atkinson's old F1?