Green Building Forum - VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

jamesingram — Wed, 06 May 2015 20:23:30 +0100

VOTE GREEN tomorrow and do everyone a favour

there you go , straight up, no holes barred biased posting

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

Nick Parsons — Wed, 06 May 2015 21:08:32 +0100

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

GarethC — Wed, 06 May 2015 21:30:08 +0100

I wish I could. Living in Scotland, though, and given our (in my opinion) absurd electoral system, I'm forced to vote tactically, for a party I don't really want, in an attempt to prevent an outcome I'm very much against. So many in a similar situation, not just in Scotland.

Sorry to drag down a lighthearted comment, but I'm pretty fed up with this election.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

owlman — Wed, 06 May 2015 21:37:41 +0100

Certainly If I do Jim, the chances are It'll be a wasted vote, for the reasons GarethC indicated.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

atomicbisf — Wed, 06 May 2015 22:10:06 +0100

It's better to vote for what you want and not to get it, than to vote for what you didn't want and get that...

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

Ed Davies — Wed, 06 May 2015 22:10:09 +0100

A vote for a candidate who you know can't get in is not wasted, though; that tends to finish up as a self-fulfilling prophecy. It registers what you want. It improves the legitimacy of any MPs their party gets in in other constituencies. It increases pressure for electoral reform [Â¹]. And it might at least save them their deposit.

[Â¹] Loving [Â²] hearing politicians who argued viciously against AV now moaning that MPs might be returned with disproportionally small numbers of votes.

[Â²] Actually, somewhat infuriated by it.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

SteamyTea — Wed, 06 May 2015 22:52:13 +0100

I know my local Green candidate, makes it tricky. I like the bloke, but not sure if it is worth a vote. Last time around there were only 66 votes separating the winner and all the losers.
I still find it odd that the whole of Cornwall does not vote for Mebyon Kernow.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

fostertom — Thu, 07 May 2015 08:07:53 +0100

Posted By: atomicbisfIt's better to vote for what you want and not to get it, than to vote for what you didn't want and get that...

That's good.

Sign of the times, for first time ever I can now vote green today - and at both national and District level. Nationally it's a Tory cert, and for District an Independent farmer always beats everyone 2 to 1 - so no question of tactical voting in either - might as well make my gesture and hope it's part of a nationwide trend that no one expected.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

andyman99 — Thu, 07 May 2015 09:05:16 +0100

â€œReturn our railways to public ownershipâ€ canâ€™t believe thatâ€™s in anyoneâ€™s interest whatever the rights and wrongs of the original privatisation. Canâ€™t disagree with much else though.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

Ed Davies — Thu, 07 May 2015 09:59:05 +0100

Britain's railways are already mostly in public ownership. It's just that the publics owning them aren't British.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

SteamyTea — Thu, 07 May 2015 10:02:50 +0100

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

jamesingram — Thu, 07 May 2015 10:04:45 +0100

For a first past the post system in a safe seat all alternative voted could be considered a waste
or as Tom and Ed says the opposite , Vote to show your view to the sitting MP
Only in a marginal seat does a vote for an alternative to the current MP have any real effect.
How many seats are Marginal (or Swing), whats the percentage of total ?
So I can only understand tactical voting in these type of seats

Either way I'll vote for the individual/groups policies I most prefer, I'd be surprised if my views are inline with the majority

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

fostertom — Thu, 07 May 2015 10:15:52 +0100

We have an Independent candidate for Westminster, who says he knows he's lost his own-pocket Â£500 deposit, the incumbent Tory is bound to win as ever, and his Green competitor is a great bloke but he's unimpressed by the Green leadership.

From a long line of hardworking but always poor local farmers, a musician/film maker, he is the most radical (i.e. not just routine leftie) candidate and would get my vote, except that 'tactically' it would be an empty gesture, while a vote for the Green might just make a 'tactical' point.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

GarethC — Thu, 07 May 2015 10:18:39 +0100

In Scotland, polls suggest almost all seats will go to the SNP (from zero now). The data aren't available, but I'm assuming that the current MP's party (Labour mostly with some Lib Dems) is most likely to come second. The margins will probably not be huge, and since many Lib Dem, Labour and even Tory voters in Scotland are putting aside differences to vote tactically against SNP, tactical voting could have a big impact.

I'd like to think that a second successive coalition would result in another drive for some form of proportional representation, but since that was roundly rejected just a few years ago, and nobody's talking about it now, I'm not hopeful.

Put it this way, the Lib Dems got a much higher share of the vote than they did of commons seats for decades, but it was only when forced into coalition that the conservatives did anything about it.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

SteamyTea — Thu, 07 May 2015 10:35:17 +0100

If you want to vote 'tactically' and you are in the right constituency, then you can vote out the leaders of the political parties.

PR relies on high voter participation, FPTP only needs one more voter than there are candidates.
Trouble is we vote for a candidate and not a government. That would make for an interesting PR system. Vote for the local candidate you like, and also vote for the party you want to run the country.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

CWatters — Thu, 07 May 2015 10:38:15 +0100

Page 23 of the Green manifesto caught my eye..

https://www.greenpar...n_Manifesto.pdf

They plan to phase out the use of fossil fuel for energy generation by 2023 (8 years) and Nuclear by 2025 (10 years). I think that would be impossible.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

SteamyTea — Thu, 07 May 2015 10:46:18 +0100

No dead easy, they just pay people Â£10/hour to cut down trees, with an axe.
After shipping them out from the brownfield ghettos on donkeys.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

owlman — Thu, 07 May 2015 10:56:03 +0100

Posted By: jamesingram
How many seats are Marginal (or Swing), whats the percentage of total ?

Historically, not more than about 30% and that was at the "97" election with the massive swing to Labour. Usually it's much less than that. I haven't crunched the numbers but if you go back to "45" you'll more than likely find that most elections are won or lost with less than 20% of the 650 seats, party wise, changing hands.
I read somewhere that at this election there are about 80-100 marginals depending on your interpretation. So roughly 12.5% to 15% of the seats decides who we get. If you're in one of these you can affect the outcome, if not you're p...ing into the wind, but heigh-ho that's democracy. Protest vote if you want, but you may be better off choosing the least worst candidate, if you're first choice historically hasn't got a chance.
No one remembers the bronze medallist, not in a first past the post electoral system.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

jamesingram — Thu, 07 May 2015 11:06:12 +0100

I thought it was a given that manifestos were a desire to.. rather than anything set in stone :-)

still CATs Zero carbon britian shows a possible routes in that direction

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

skyewright — Thu, 07 May 2015 11:08:34 +0100

Posted By: GarethCIn Scotland, polls suggest almost all seats will go to the SNP (from zero now).

Am I misreading that or are you suggesting that in the parliament that has just ended there were no SNP MPs?

There were 6 according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_National_Party_MPs_%282010%E2%80%9315%29

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

jamesingram — Thu, 07 May 2015 11:12:13 +0100

thanks Owlman , that sort of confirms my suspicions ,
Yes people rave on about how important our democracy is and how voting really matter , put in those term , some votes clearly matter more than others
and they wonder why there is apathy

then stick in turn out to mix it up and you get governed by a party voted in by a very small percentage of
votes

There really must be a better way than FPTP, it sucks

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

djh — Thu, 07 May 2015 11:17:19 +0100

I probably will vote green tomorrow both locally and nationally because I know the candidates. The local councillor will probably win (be re-elected) and he does a good job. The national MP will almost certainly lose, which is just as well because most of the 'ordinary' green party policies are lunatic IMHO, but the 'green' issues do need support. Apart from changing the voting system, I also think we need a different method of deciding individual policies.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

jamesingram — Thu, 07 May 2015 11:22:58 +0100

You may find the ballot closed tomorrow djh

The elections today!!

heres an list of estimated outcomes for seat
http://www.electionforecast.co.uk/tables/predicted_vote_by_seat.html

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

GarethC — Thu, 07 May 2015 11:55:01 +0100

Yes sorry Skyewright, should have said very few currently.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

snyggapa — Thu, 07 May 2015 12:03:34 +0100

I agree with djh, I entirely support ecologically sound principles, but the policies of the "green party" are lunatic to the point of making them unelectable - I would place them somewhere to the left of the communist party.

I did vote for them once though, when I didn't live in a marginal - I do now, so won't be voting for them since my vote may be the first one I have ever cast that counts for something. Sorry

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

fostertom — Thu, 07 May 2015 12:36:29 +0100

Posted By: owlmanbut heigh-ho that's democracy

Not remotely what the ancient Greeks meant by it - another buzz word (like 'Sustainable', or 'Christianity') that's been hijacked and almost reversed in meaning.

To them it was a way to reach consensus; to us it's a way to rudely deny what they want to at least 49%, usually more, of the poulation, who immediately then put all their energy into hating the others and plotting their downfall 'next time'.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

owlman — Thu, 07 May 2015 12:58:59 +0100

Posted By: fostertom
Posted By: owlmanbut heigh-ho that's democracy
Not remotely what the ancient Greeks meant by it -

True; to them it WAS a consensus, but only a consensus reached by an elite few, and excluded arguably the vast majority. So, modern democracy may be close than you would think to it's ancient origins.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

Ed Davies — Thu, 07 May 2015 13:07:43 +0100

Posted By: CWattersThey plan to phase out the use of fossil fuel for energy generation by 2023 (8 years) and Nuclear by 2025 (10 years). I think that would be impossible.

Yep, not going to happen, at least not that quickly, even if there was a majority of Green MPs. Still, better for everybody and a closer approximation to what's really going to happen than the other parties' policies which are, in actual effect whatever they might say, to continue an exponential growth in fossil fuel use forever.

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

jamesingram — Thu, 07 May 2015 13:14:39 +0100

Well just went down to vote
The die has been cast it's down to fate now !

VOTE GREEN (A petition for electoral reform)

Ed Davies — Thu, 07 May 2015 13:17:50 +0100

https://twitter.com/_youhadonejob/status/596204574492463104/photo/1