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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2015
     
    I am auditing the loft in my detached 1950s house. I have a list of jobs to do, and some questions have arisen that I would like to resolve before continuing.

    Context: when we moved in September '13, in the main part of the loft, there was no loft insulation but the loft was boarded. It appears that at one time the loft was used to live in; the roof itself is boarded and has insulation above the board (I would assume between the rafters). So to an extent the main part of the loft over the centre of the house could be considered "warm".

    However there is open access to substantial extensions (I'd guess they double the floor area) that are cold roof. Therefore I surmised it would be best to lay mineral wool insulation on the floor of the loft.

    We were in a rush with this project for numerous reasons. I made the decision to get a local guy to lay it on the boards. I regret this now; although he did a good job there is just too many compromises here and there.

    So this leads me to a "loft audit" of a number of items, with a number of jobs to do.

    The photo attached to this post shows some context. You can see the boarding on the roof, and the boarding on the joists on which the loft roll was sitting (now removed).

    I shall add separate posts for each question so the photos can be grouped with the question easily.
      loft-NE-end.jpeg
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2015
     
    yes
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2015
     
    Ok, first question and currently the biggest hold up.

    Should I remove the boarding on the roof?

    The main reason to do this as I see it is to allow more space at the eaves to fit insulation. See attached picture. I can't properly get behind that joist to fit insulation. Thermal imaging showed this as a weak spot.

    I don't actually understand how the loft is ventilated. There're no ventilation holes in the soffits. But there's a right gale blowing through the boards, so is it ventilated there somehow?

    I think I need to remove this boarding but I want to check before I do anything dumb.
      roof-board-eaves.jpeg
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2015
     
    While I've got the previous picture fresh in your mind, I wanted to raise a discrepancy I don't understand.

    On the SW side of the loft, there's a half height joist running the length of the wall (see image in this post).

    But on the NE side (the previous picture), the final joist is full height, and then the roof boarding (and I assume the rafters) seems to sit on some masonry block (not really that visible in the above picture).

    Any idea why there's this discrepancy? Probably doesn't matter...
      SE-half-height-joist.jpeg
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2015
     
    I would, any insulation above them cant be doing much good if there are draughts getting into the loft!

    It is illegal to live in a loft and where I am there are big fines available for insulating the roof and putting in a floor in a loft.

    they look like quite big ceiling joists
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2015
     
    Next one. So I will be filling the gaps between joists with mineral wool.

    See attachment. The plasterboard ceiling for the floor below is sealed with some sort of mortar to the internal face of the NE gable. There's gaps where the joist sits in the wall. Some segments (not the image below) don't have the mortar between ceiling and wall.

    Should I foam between ceiling and wall?

    Should I fill the joist gaps?

    Should I go the whole hog and adopt Tony's technique - http://readinguk.org/draughtbusters/?page_id=268 - or is this not needed because this is the loft?
      joist_gable_ceiling_junction.jpeg
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2015
     
    My favourite one this next one!

    I performed a thermal imaging survey in January and this popped right up - an open cavity. The one in the image is where an old gable has been extended onto, lengthening the house, then an other extension at a right angle enveloping the old roof.

    The old sarking is peeling off and you can see right down the wall. I almost dropped my camera down there!

    The same goes for the wall at a right angle to this one, also enveloped by the second extension I mentioned.

    What to do? Get the CWI people out, will they fill internal walls?
      open-cavity.jpeg
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2015 edited
     
    I think I'll throw this one in anyway... I found during the thermal imaging one internal wall, the old NE gable shown in the first image, had cold spots on the first floor near the ceiling.

    Above the cold spots is the access hole into an extension. The attachment shows the cill for the hole and a huge hole which I assume is the cause of the problem... although this hole passes to the cavity, and I can't remember now if the internal wall showing the cold spots is dry lined (which would imply a plasterboard tent style problem instead).
      cill_gap.jpeg
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2015
     
    Does the style of block with horizontal lines have a name btw?
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2015
     
    Posted By: tonyI would, any insulation above them cant be doing much good if there are draughts getting into the loft!
    Thanks Tony. I thought this was for the best.

    Is it as straight forward as using a claw hammer to pull out the pins/nails holding the board up?

    There are no known gotchas with this type of thing?

    Posted By: tony
    they look like quite big ceiling joists
    150mm depth, 415mm gap between them. Is that a lot?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 9th 2015
     
    Hollow tile blocks, very brittle and now made of terracotta and more common in Europe.

    I would tip polystyrene beads down the open cavities.

    I would seal the joists where they go into the walls.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2015
     
    The trouble with filling the cavity myself is that I only have access from the side of the gable where it is possible to stand up and this pour the bead. Does that make sense?

    I wouldn't have thought the bead would settle well in this case; it would slope and a triangular section on the other side would be untreated. Dunno, not done it before!
    • CommentAuthorrhamdu
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2015
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: gravelld</cite>I don't actually understand how the loft is ventilated. There're no ventilation holes in the soffits. But there's a right gale blowing through the boards, so is it ventilated there somehow?
    </blockquote>
    Is there felt/membrane in the roof? If not, air will flow freely between the tiles. Unless the boarding and insulation were designed to be airtight, you could expect some ventilation by that route.

    I don't see any great need to remove the boards unless they interfere with your other plans. However, I would be tempted to take off one board, or cut away as much as you need, to see what's actually going on up there. That might help you to decide whether the boards are really preventing you doing a proper loft insulation job.

    We inherited a loft with plasterboard fixed to the rafters and glassfibre or rockwool insulation above. I had to cut away the bottom ~300mm of plasterboard to instal new ceiling joists. That also meant I could push the new insulation right out to the tiles. I left the old insulation and most of the PB in place and the loft is now surprisingly warm despite >200 mm of insulation below it.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 10th 2015
     
    Thanks. There's roofing felt but I guess no membranes. Quite a breeze coming through any holes in the roof boarding.

    The main reason for removing the board is to fit in insulation in the eaves, as per the second image above (note the minuscule gap between the top joist and the roof board - I cannot fit my hand in there so I won't be able to get insulation in there). The eaves were identified as cold spots during a thermal imaging survey in January.

    I might try removing the bottom board and see how we go from there, but if there's any sign of anything going to fall from the boards above I'll have them off too.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2015
     
    Peeps, I don't want to mess up on the ventilation here.

    Can someone suggest how the loft is currently ventilated? There are no soffit vents.

    The roof is boarded and insulated, and I feel a draught coming through the joins in the board.

    How does the ventilation work?

    Do I stand a chance of blocking the ventilation if I remove the boards and insulate as far as possible into the eaves (up to the inner leaf of brick)?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 12th 2015
     
    Leave a 25mm gap over the top of the insulation immediately under the sparking felt. Easy with sheet insulation.

    Ideally join roof and wall insulation over the wall plate as thick as pos with the 25mm gap.

    There will be enough ventilation without any soffit vents just by cracks and gaps
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2015
     
    Thanks Tony.

    I don't have any sheet insulation but assume it'll be ok with loft roll. Worth buying rafter trays to ensure the gap?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2015
     
    I would rather see sheet insulation than trays, but as a last resort they are OK (just) not so easy to retrofit as you might imagine
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2015 edited
     
    Actually I need to buy some rigid insulation anyway. Which sheet material?

    I need to take the roof boards down to see what I can fit in, i.e. what the clearance above the joists is.

    Do I cut to size then fill the gaps to joists/inner leaf with foam?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2015
     
    polystyrene will do, 25 thick easy to work with cut to fit between put some 40 wide strips on top and push quilt under to hold all in place, friction fit will help and eps is very forgiving though will snap if forced too muck.
    • CommentAuthormw116
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2015
     
    I poured bead into hard to reach places with a length of waste pipe (40mm I think) - it worked quite well, you don't need much of a slope to get them to flow. Can redistribute them by pushing around, gets over the triangle problem quite well. I did also use a bunged up bit of 32mm to push the beads out when then wouldn't flow...
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2015
     
    Nice
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2015 edited
     
    What's the comparative R of loose fill bead versus EPS sheets?

    Any reason not to use PUR? Financial expense?

    As above I have some open cavities Tony has suggested filling with bead.

    Best (probably cheapest) source?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2015
     
    Eps is breathable and significantly cheaper and a lot more forgiving on size when cutting
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 13th 2015
     
    Thanks.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2015 edited
     
    I took the boards off, revealing 100mm of insulation between the rafters. I might as well re-use it, so I'm taking all the boards off.

    What I found at the eaves wasn't what I expected.

    After the final joist visible in the second/third image above, there are two further joists, stepped down, each shorter than the previous. There are just ~70mm gaps between each one. See picture. The joist in the foreground is the previously final joist mentioned above.

    The gap between the final joist and the felt is just 60mm.

    Assume I should just be filling this in as best I can.
      100_4970.JPG
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2015 edited
     
    To add to the final point, I shoved the camera in as far as it could go and took this picture. Assume this is the external wall in the foreground. I'm confused though, looks like there's a joist gone all the way through it and there's plasterboard outboard?

    Help understanding that picture is gratefully received.
      100_4971.JPG
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2015
     
    the joist that looks like it went all the way through is a short bit probably sitting on or against the outside skin

    the 70mm gaps could be filled with insulation, beads might be easiest, the new wood looks like the back of a a new fascia board

    I would like to see insulation going over the wall plate and joining the wall insulation.

    over the wall plate the 50mm gap can reduce to 25mm for a short distance.

    I dont think it will be plasterboard outboard, at least I hope not, what are your softies made from?

    i would try to hang a piece of insulation quilt over the wall plate, shove a sleet of eps 600 long over it 150 past the wall plate, then slide two wedges of eps 25mm to 50mm, 500 long this end on to it each side and pin or glueit all in place

    then carefully fill under it with quilt
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2015
     
    I'll try to move the short bit of joist to test that...

    Will try bead, difficult to get "over" the joist with a vessel containing loose fill. Will see what I can do, need to buy bead for the cavities anyway.

    Can you confirm where the wall plate is here? Will it just be sitting on the inner leaf or does it bridge the cavity and rest on the outer too? As you can see from the previous picture the top of some masonry is exposed. I tried to feel down around the masonry but could not find a cavity nor insulation.

    Soffits are timber, at least from the outside!

    So using the EPS as a rigid sheet to ensure the ventilation gap? Not concerned about crushing the loft roll underneath?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 18th 2015
     
    Looks to me like no wall plate as the birdsmouth is sat on what looks like a concrete lintel, it could be concrete block though.

    Try not to squish quilt too much as it looses its insulating properties and might burst the eps which is forming the void and adding insulation value too.
   
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