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    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 4th 2008
    Way back in June 2006 the government said it was going to remove the need for PP. It said it again in April 2007. Has anything actually happened?

    Out of interest can someone point me at legislation that says PP is required? I can't find a mention in the Town and Country Planning Act 1990 but then it's 42 pages. Who decides that a windmill requires PP but something like kite flying doesn't? (or perhaps it does?).
    A complete guess but I wonder if the planners may be using the requirement that states that any material alteration to a roof slope requires planning. There is another requirement which relates to anything more than 4m in height. These would tie up most scenarios.
    They are thinking of making wind turbines under 12 metres height (including the blades) Permitted Development,
    i.e. you don't need planning permission unless you have had your PD rights removed (depends on your address) and the obvious restrictions around conservation areas etc.
    It isn't definite yet, just at consultation stage. The idea is to make micro-renewables easier for people to install and not have to go to great expense with plans, fees etc. making it less economically viable.
    I will keep you updated when (if) it happens.
    The reason WT need PP is that they constitute 'engineering works'. It's all to do with degrees of permanence, there is case law regarding this sort of thing involving cranes etc.
    I am not familiar with anyone trying to argue that they are temporary structures and succeeding, but would be extremely interested to know. (MSc thesis pending on medium scale wind turbines up to 20kW)
    Plus anyone who has had a hard time getting PP for a wind turbine, please contact me and I could maybe interview you.

    On a lighter note, I do not see why they should be a problem even if you do need PP. If you don't ask you don't get. Quote national planning policies at them and they should agree that it is the way forward for a sustainable future.
    Hi Dominic, I missed by miles then
    • CommentAuthorTheDoctor
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2008
    you can put up 12m high turbines without a crane - easy.
    Use gin poles - if that helps the argument!
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2008
    I think he meant case law for things, like cranes, which aren't permanent, not that you don't need PP for something which doesn't need a crane.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2008
    Yes. I was thinking of a turbine on a pole not on the house. That would allow it to be much further from other houses - perhaps 50 meters away. I guess the 4 meter height issue is the limitation. I'm in a conservation area so whatever it would be tricky and v.unpopular. Just an idea at the moment.
    • CommentAuthorErica
    • CommentTimeMar 5th 2008
    We were going to apply for PP but the planners told us that they would be unlikely to agree, in any case. So we put that part of our plans on hold for the moment.
    Here is the government response to the consultation paper. No indication of when or if ever the changes will come into force.

    Also its under 11m with 2m blades (sorry I got carried away!)

    Erica, what is your situation? Conservation area, listed building, National park etc.? Geographical location?
    • CommentAuthorErica
    • CommentTimeMar 6th 2008
    Not conservation area, or AONB, nothing special! We abut green belt, but I can't see that that had anything to do with it. We're in South Bucks - Chiltern District Council.
    Local planning experience: the LPA 'expert' on micro generation recently told me how supportive the LPA was of urban wind turbines... as long as it was nowhere too obvious like the top of a hill and ideally where no one could see it...

    Yes, their ideal scenario is in a valley bottom screened by trees on all sides.

    A great one I heard the other day "Don't confuse common sense with planning"
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2008
    So I guess being near the top of a hill, in a conservation area with listed buildings on both sides, a public footpath and rare birds on site might reduce my chances slightly :-)
    I have heard that mobile lighting towers can be used for wind turbines and there is nothing the planners can do about it because they are portable
    • CommentAuthorwgarrett
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2009
    Is this thread still alive?

    I took the 'just get on with it' approach last year and am now in discussion with the borough council over planning permission. Does anyone have any experience in winning this kind of battle? Similar to CWatters, we're in a listed building (although the turbine is about 30m away from the listed building but 5m from other outbuildings), conservation area and it's within about 15m of a bridleway.

    I just wonder how strong the 'green' card is, apparently there aren't any other turbines in this area.

    Very interested in the portable argument, any chance you can elaborate? I've got a 500W turbine on a 6m pole so not exactly huge, a portable tower might be sufficient.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 14th 2009 edited
    The relevant section would be Schedule 2 of the GPDO, which details ‘permitted development’. Specifically Part 4, Class B which covers "Temporary Buildings and Uses".

    Class B permits.. "provision on the land of any moveable structure for purposes of permitted use"...


    but there are restrictions...

    B.1 Development is not permitted by Class B if—

    (a) the land in question is a building or is within the curtilage of a building,

    (b) the use of the land is for a caravan site,

    (c) the land is, or is within, a site of special scientific interest and the use of the land is for—

    (i) a purpose referred to in paragraph B.2(b) or other motor sports;

    (ii) clay pigeon shooting; or

    (iii) any war game,


    (d) the use of the land is for the display of an advertisement.

    People selling advert space on parked trailers should note that last point.

    You probably need to watch out for the rule that precludes something "within the curtilage of a building"

    I guess there might also be something in the section on microgeneration but I haven't looked.

    PS: I allways thought this was the section that allowed you to park a caravan on your driveway but seems not. I wonder which section that is?
    Posted By: wgarrettI just wonder how strong the 'green' card is, apparently there aren't any other turbines in this area.

    The Green card carries very little weight at all, in spite of sustainable development being central to planning education and in every issue of planning mag (including wind turbines)

    When it comes to the 'coal face' it's still visual impact first - especially in the curtilage of a listed building (affecting the setting of...)

    that's not to mention NIMBY's and determined campaigns of lies and objections. If it has to go to Planning Committee, they will probably refuse it too 'coz they're usually Tories.

    I can try and help you if you like, but I have rather a lot of my own planning battles going on at the moment.
    (I won an appeal to erect 2 x 15kW Proven on 15m mast in the Green Belt and Special Landscape Area.)

    Whereabouts in the country are you?

    PS I am virtually certain that any wind turbine needs planning permission at the moment.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2009
    Posted By: Dominic Cooney The Green card carries very little weight at all, in spite of sustainable development being central to planning education and in every issue of planning mag (including wind turbines)

    When it comes to the 'coal face' it's still visual impact first - especially in the curtilage of a listed building (affecting the setting of...)

    During my 18 month battle to get planning permission they told me exactly that. I asked if it would make any difference if my application was for a highly energy efficient house and was told no because "all houses have to be sustainable these days". They consider the Building Regs minimium delivers sustainable housing.
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJul 15th 2009 edited
    I note that ASHP are not yet permitted development but why is permitted development needed? What rule does it fall foul of without permitted development ? Gas boilers aren't permitted development so do you need PP for those? The rules seem a bit confused.


    Home energy generation

    As part of this review the Government has recently extended and clarified the scope of permitted development for installing microgeneration equipment in domestic properties.

    Wind turbines and air source heat pumps are not yet permitted development. However, once standards have been established to address the potential impacts of noise and vibration these technologies will also enjoy permitted development rights.
    ''Is this thread still alive?

    I took the 'just get on with it' approach last year and am now in discussion with the borough council over planning permission. Does anyone have any experience in winning this kind of battle? Similar to CWatters, we're in a listed building (although the turbine is about 30m away from the listed building but 5m from other outbuildings), conservation area and it's within about 15m of a bridleway.''

    Jane Smith, are you still reading the Forum? Could you comment?

    If Jane is not around I may be able to find out some information re her negotiations (ultimately successful) with a National Park Authority for the erection of a 6kW turbine. I think it is almost certainly due to her persistence that at least one other installation has gone ahead without too much difficulty.
    Jane's partner is a surveyor so he knew the system well (which helps)
    They are in the Peak District National Park at the North end near Sheffield (I think)
    The house is called Stanedge Lodge, and they are off-grid so they could probably argue for an identified need for a Wind Turbine as well.
    Basically they pointed out to the Park Authority that their own policies encourage renewable energy generation.
    Their turbine is now featured in the Peak District leaflet on renewable energy.

    I don't expect Staffs Moorlands will use a picture of my turbines in any of their literature!

    Remember, if your application is refused you can go to appeal - it's really not that hard if you choose 'written reps' process. Then your case can be assessed by an independent inspector in line with national planning policies.

    I would think that proximity to neighbours would also be a main issue with smaller turbines, due to to the perception of noise pollution. You may have to provide information on noise emissions (usually available from the turbine manufacturer) so that Environmental Protection can be consulted and make an informed comment.
    This was one area where we had problems, and only managed to get hold of and provide this information at the last minute - resulting in no objection from Env.Pro. once they had the data to assess.
    • CommentAuthorbvashton
    • CommentTimeNov 26th 2009
    Hi all,

    I’m currently looking into installing a micro wind turbine on a farm within the Peak District National Park. The farm belongs to my girlfriend’s parents, Rona & Geoff Cooper who have asked me to help them out with researching the project. There are also 2 holiday cottages, 5 B&B rooms and a tearoom attached to the farm and last years electricity consumption was 45,000 k/w! Very high I think you’ll agree, so we’re really hoping to install something like a Westwind 20kw or a Gaia 11kw, because the farm is 1300ft above sea level in a very exposed position. You can check Google maps for SK10 5XJ. From experience, does anyone know whether this will be possible?

    A couple of weeks ago I met Nick Parsons at an Eco refurbishment course in Bollington, Cheshire where he was presenting. Nick mentioned Stanedge Lodge had finally been granted PP after a 5 year struggle, which was a little off putting to say the least, but I can say it’s not going to put us off trying! I believe Stanedge had a Proven 6kw approved which is much smaller than what we are hoping for. I’m going to try and speak to Jane soon to find out whether they initially went for a larger turbine and had to compromise. If anyone knows here then it would be a great help?

    I’m going to document my entire process of researching and finally (hopefully) installing a wind turbine at Common Barn Farm, to help others out because what I’ve found so far is that there is so much research and work involved, especially when looking for grants. I’ve already setup a blog, where I am also reviewing the Power Predictor device which measures wind speed and solar energy at a site. The blog can be found here: http://www.powerpredictorreview.com/

    I’ve already added a couple of posts documenting my story so far and will shortly be adding new posts about our planning application. I’m hoping it should be quite an informative guide for others to follow hopefully, particularly if your property is within the Peak Park.

    Good luck with the planning application.
    I was so appalled with how we were treated at the hands of our local council that I undertook an MSc in Environmental Planning.
    They still won't leave us alone, they cannot accept defeat. We had a letter from Planning Enforcement this time last year, and another one recently.
    Our official complaint is now at stage 2: Executive Director. (stage 3 is Chief Executive, followed by Local government Ombudsman if still not satisfied.)

    Wind speed monitoring is definitely vital before progressing any further.
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2009
    I'm interested in planning issues with small wind turbines too - been there, done it.

    Can I ask why the enforcers are chasing you Dominic? Are they saying your install is not in accord with the planning permission or the conditions applied?
    • CommentAuthorbvashton
    • CommentTimeNov 27th 2009
    Thanks Dominic, I'll be updating my blog regularly regarding planning permission
    Both. However because I know what this Council is like, I made absolutely certain that they were installed in accordance with the approved plans. I am hoping the Executive Director will sort them out and get some heads rolling.
    They even questioned the Planning Inspector's decision - which is practically unheard of in Planning.
    • CommentAuthorjemhayward
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2009
    Just to reinforce how bonkers some of these people can be, local conservation officer is fighting solar thermal panels on a listed building as the "techology is not yet proven to be effective" - that would be difficult to argue with PV, but as far as I know we've Been heating water with sunshine for quite a few years now!
    • CommentTimeNov 28th 2009
    Dominic, sounds like you have a battle on your hands. Let me know if you need any help.

    Jem, ask the officer to cite the peer-reviewed scientific papers that the opinion is based on. I'd be interested to see them. Point them at BS EN 12975 and Solar Kite approvals for the intended panels (assuming they have them - they should) and the fact that they are allowed as permitted development outside conservation areas.
    ive just been told the planners are going to reject my application to erect an 11kw gaia on the farm at home. apparently the turbine is excessivley high at 25m, the blade is too big and that it will impact on the landscape from the main road?(1/4 mile away). very disappointed considering the architect had told us we shouldn't have any problems. the planners would however accept a smaller turbine however im keen to press ahead and appeal the decision before it makes it too council. i cant understand how theyve decided to reject my application. i do not live in an AONB/national park/green field site; only last year we dismantled a 30metre high grain tower. we went to see a gaia at another farm, right on the edge of a town, erected on a hill and in full view of a far busier main road. the case is now further complicated by the fact that gaia are increasing the price of the turbine at the end of the month and want a 25%desposit to secure the original price.

    apparently the planners have made decisions on several gaias this month in northern ireland and are proving themselves diffcult to work with. Has anyone else anywhere in the UK had any problems of this nature.


    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeJan 26th 2010 edited
    If the system in NI is the same as in England...

    It sounds like you've been told the planning officer is going to recommend refusal. I don't think you can appeal before you have had the formal rejection (eg before it's been to the planning committee and the planning officer has written back with the formal reasons for the refusal).

    It was possibly a mistake to dismantle the grain tower before making the application for a turbine. It might have been better to make the application one to replace the 30m grain tower with a 25 meter turbine.
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