Visited a local so called Eco-build timber frame site today where my builders are working. Always interesting to see other projects but within minutes I noticed these big chunky steels sitting on the wall plates. Wall is insulated between frame and steel finishes flush with outside edge frames, no external insulation just block work outside! They have obviously thought about other areas, reasonable level of PIR insulation, internal airtightness etc but also thermal bridges thrown in for good measure!

I don't understand, It's so simple, are architects not taught this stuff as part of their studies or is it just making pretty pictures? We had the same with our own design, architect had shown supporting steels sitting on outside walls everywhere, soon eliminated with some on-site redesign :)

"Structural engineers- because architects don't understand the laws of physics"

..... one thing I have noticed is that SE calcs are more readily accepted and dealt with by arch's?
Perhaps because the laws of gravity and materials strengths haven't changed, but Part L (Building Regs.) has....

But in our case and in most it seems the structural engineer provides separate info with size of steels and calcs etc but they don't really comment on the architect drawings so such details go through unchanged!

What's the difference between an architect and a "house designer" (a term I hear a lot more of nowadays). Qualifications?

A little bit harsh from most of you!
Was the architect project managing or simply called in to do the drawings? The architect doesn't always do the structural stuff but then you will know this already. The timber frame company will often change architects drawings to suit their build up. Sure in a perfect world where architects are paid to follow a project through this sort of thing should be picked up but mistakes do happen. I know I make them.
For me I wanted an architect who can design a beautiful, practical house and can input practical ideas for materials,insulation, orientation, latest ideas/techniques etc.

My architect took my build away from the simple efficient design I had thought up and made it an amazing building to live in and look at. Sure its not so eco, but its a hell of a lot better to live in as a result. The drawings were then passed to the frame company who made all sorts of errors that seriously compromised the bridging and airtightness, but I didn't employ the architect to project manage so things slipped. The architect would have fought my corner and made the significant changes needed. I didn't have that clout/foresight/expertise.

The idea of one man being an expert in design, eco credentials, build management etc is a little far fetched....although I know many offer these services. I just wouldn't be surprised if they missed some things if I expected all that from them.

Posted By: wookey I've never understood how anyone can design a building without knowing how it's going to be made, but this seems to be perfectly normal.

Same here, it is just crazy.

I bought my plot (with footings in place) from an architect. Both BC and the builder were glad I had a more realistic approach to construction than what the architect had put on the plans. With great help from this forum, and an experienced but flexible builder, I specified the construction details myself. Completely redesigned the internal space too, only externals are fixed by planning. Generally on site "architect" was a term of derission.

Posted By: MackersNew engineers with a broad knowledge of how things are built sound be trained and take a holistic approach to design.

Yes!!

If there are any out there then please make yourselves known. Wanting to build an eco house where do you go? Who can provide all the construction details that a good builder could follow. Not everyone has the time or aptitude to do the steep learning curve many of us here have travelled.

Posted By: Phil.Chaddah-Dukestructural engineer ... don't really comment on the architect drawings so such details go through unchanged!

You're talking about thermal bridging effect of architects' details? A SE wouldn't be qualified to comment on that. Architects should be qualified, but as above, many haven't a clue.

Having just passed my Certified Passivhaus Designer course today, I had logged on here to say thank you to the forum for inspiring me to get this far. As an architect, however, this thread was a rather blunt reminder of the general prejudices that still exist in the building industry...

Education has a big part to play - I actually studied on one of the few courses that teaches both structural engineers and architects in the same classes, but the changes that have already been made here will take years to filter through - so you're unlikely to see Mackers' 'new engineers' running businesses any time soon.

Equally try finding a tradesperson or clerk of works who's been educated in thermal bridging and airtightness (for those jobs when the designer doesn't live on site) and you'll discover another gap in the supply.

There's also very little awareness on the demand side of what should or could be achieved (i.e. Passivhaus) amidst a wealth of misinformation in the media. Whilst we're stuck with an increasingly castrated and reactive planning system and there are no financial incentives to improve efficiency (i.e. carbon tax), then 'Grand Designs' ideas will be what people expect, possibly with token eco-bling bolted on.

So until this cohort of 'new engineers' who know everything about everything are released into the industry, the second best option in the meantime might be to collaborate and discuss ideas in the spirit of mutual respect and knowledge sharing. If only there was a forum for that...

Posted By: Doubting_ThomasHaving just passed my Certified Passivhaus Designer course today

Congratulations!

more good stuff ... If only there was a forum for that...

Hear, hear.

I dont know where this fallacy comes from that architects do not study structural engineering? Its part of the foundation of the course that you learn the basics so that your design decisions are feasible. In the real world you still rely on a qualified and insured SE to provide you with correct solutions that they are happy with signing off on.

Architects are not engineers and engineers are not architects, for good reason. They are two very different disciplines with different requirements and responsibilities.

The notion that a non-specialised architect should also be a structural engineer is nowhere near feasible. There are only so many hours in the day and days in the week and they already have enough things to do!

Its possible that people are making the mistake that because they meet an architect that isnt focused on SEing or green building that they are completely ignorant or unable to understand the subjects. I think its much more likely that they are happier letting a SE or energy specialist worry about these things so that they can concentrate on the areas that interest them.

Posted By: skyewrightArchitects design 'spaces'. The SE's job is to make sure the 'spaces' don't collapse...

N.B. That wasn't meant to disparage Architects. Some of those 'spaces' are beautiful...

As to "understanding" structures & what is likely to work, a lot of it is about having an appreciation of lines of force, e.g. where compression & tension are likely to be significant & very importantly how gravity works. Lines of force can be beautiful in themselves, think of arches (& their, sort of, reverse in a suspension bridge). As someone looking at this from the engineering side I'd hope that the Architect''s thoughts would be at least informed by such things?

Perhaps some Architects have more of a 'feel' for this sort of thing than others? Perhaps some courses emphasise this sort of thing more than other courses?

Perhaps there is similarly such a thing as a 'feel' for thermal performance in design?

Posted By: MackersArchitects seem unable to do this and in my opinion cause more hassle. I work on £100m+ jobs and the architects cause more hassle and hold ups because they are not willing to allow for services or structural elements

Get a decent architect then - you know what's needed, so why settle for less?

Tom,

The problem here is that 'most' arch's don't have a grasp of all the Building Regs!
They sub out Part A 'work' to SEs, and (sometimes) Part L work to EAs...

Simples....