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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorstorm
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2008
     
    Any recommendations for the most efficient/ reliable ground source heat pumps in the U.K ? I was most interested in having a Goodman
    GSHP installed but apparently these are not available in the U.K. I was recently advised by a builder against heat pumps, he said that
    that they are very high maintenance, so I can only assume he has met with people who have poor quality heat pumps. As all articles I have come across claim low maintenance surely there must be
    some worthwhile make out there ?
    •  
      CommentAuthorPaulT
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2008
     
    GSHPs only reduce CO2 by around 20% when compared to gas heating solutions.

    So for a typical extra cost fo 10,000 for a home you get very little improvement.

    Spend the money saved on super insulating to passive house levels and also a solar hot water system.

    There will then be no need to run a very expensive heating system.
  1.  
    The CO2 issue is irrelevant IMHO. Natural gas is running out and isn't a long term solution for heating. Electricity is the most "mobile" of all sources of energy in terms of delivery to the home.

    GSHPs are very low maintenance unless you use an open loop ("pump and dump") system where you have to deal with mineral scale buildup on the heat exchanger. Closed loop systems are essentially maintenance free.

    I don't know what brands are available in the UK, but in North America ClimateMaster and WaterFurnace are considered the leading brands. Perhaps there might be import channels.

    All that said, PaulT's comments about reducing your energy needs in the first place are valid - just hope that the UK climate doesn't end up colder if you go the passivhaus route as the jury is still out about what will happen to the UK climate post-global warming.

    Paul in Montreal.
    •  
      CommentAuthorPaulT
    • CommentTimeMar 8th 2008 edited
     
    Paul we will have to disagree on the CO2...

    To add to my position:

    I am designing to passive house levels, however I would always include provision for heating - as you rightly say we could experience some very very cold winters in the UK.

    With very low heat losses I do not see a problem with using small electric heating panels and radiant heaters. It may also be reasonable to fit a perimeter underfloor heating loop. These can be used as secondary heating. It is also quite possible to include heating into the MHRV system, of course.

    As a future proofing strategy it is reasonable to include electric heating, but not a huge heat pump.

    Solar hot water should, I believe, be fitted whatever the other systems are, including renwable Biomass.

    I have recenlty seen housing associations fit GSHP's into 'standard' homes'. These beasts required 3 phase power supplies - a sure recipie for fuel poverty for the poof folks who will need up living in them (not to mention the replacement costs).
    --------
    My huge problem with heat pumps is that I visit shows and seem many being blatantly mis-sold. I have to spend a lot of time with Clients undoing the harm done by such sales tactics. These guys are the "double glazing / second hand car dealers" salesmen of our era.
    --------
    A particular aspect of the UK is that we are facing an electrical supply gap. The free market has chased profit leaving us with huge infrastructure and supply mix problems in the future. The last thing we need is to add the the electricity supply burden.
    • CommentAuthorstorm
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2008
     
    Thank you so much, Paul ( Montreal) for the information, will keep the makes you mention in mind. I am certainly going the Passivhaus route. I have explored much in this area and hope to achieve optimum bratheable airtighness for our welsh cottage soon, old part as well as the additional extension. PaulT, I much admire the extent of your knowledge and in no way wish to offend but I really do have to ask. Do you in any way have vested interests in condemning groundsource heat pumps ? Perhaps you represent some other alternative energy supplier ? I have researched deeply into GSHP'S and have read many, many glowing reports. I have been most impressed and excited by the prospect of such an energy system. However, I am no idiot, well not much anyway ! ( : < I am aware of the influence and at times downright corruption that is often the preserve of big commercial companies extolling the virtues of their products and heat pumps may well be no exception to this..... Trouble is in a matter of weeks we are to have a large extension and I have to come to a firm decision on heating arrangements. I have very recently been considering wind power as an alternative choice, as we live in a very exposed position. I do need to be settled one way or the other with an informed decision on the most economical, sustainable, choice of heating for this presently freezing property. This will involve, naturally, thousands of pounds, which cannot easily be recouped. I am swayed one way and then another by the opinions of the various professionals which abound in this forum.......Oh for a simple life... Which is why, come to think of it, I'm living in this isolated cottage in the first place !! :cry:
  2.  
    Posted By: Paul in MontrealThe CO2 issue is irrelevant IMHO. Natural gas is running out and isn't a long term solution for heating.


    Posted By: PaulTAs a future proofing strategy it is reasonable to include electric heating, but not a huge heat pump.
    Solar hot water should, I believe, be fitted whatever the other systems are, including renwable Biomass.


    Storm,

    Both above are solid sound views and not mutually exclusive. No vested interests required. GSHPs are an alternative to gas boilers NOT zero energy houses with on site renewables, however in the absence of a zero heat house and an enormous Solar DHW array, GSHP can do its bit if your worried about (or can't get) gas supply.

    However it is not cheap so, (and I think both Pauls would agree(...?))... always, always, always spend the money on insulation and airtightness first, as well as a healthy dose of solar DHW. If you can still afford the GSHP after then its worth a look, and hopefully as the national supply cleans up its act the C02 efficiency will increase and if gas becomes scarce then you're still ok.

    But if your in an isolated cottage, I can't help thinking that a woodburner with back boiler tied to a thermal store wouldn't be out of the question and COULD present better value for money (indeed the multiple input thermal store is probably the most future proofing bit of kit as it gives you the supply flexibility)...

    I can't see you huddled up with a book and a drink next to a heat pump...

    J
    • CommentAuthorskippy
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2008
     
    Hi everyone.
    I'm new to all this and certainly not up on all the technical speak.
    My family and I have just received planning permission to build a large extension on my Fathers house for us to live in. We are fairly environmentally concious and also energy conscious as well as having to watch the pennies. This will be our first big biuld and obviuosly we want to get it right. I think insulating the property is by far the most important criteria compared to what type of heating source to use. Having said that a heat supply is needed,this is where I come unstuck. GSHP's? Solar pannels..what type...tubes or cells? log burners with sustainable woodland? etc.
    I was just wondering if anyone could point me in the right direction. GSHP's is the way I seem to be leaning at the moment but with my limited experience any advice or tips would be appreciated.
    Look forward to any replies.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2008
     
    skippy: "I think insulating the property is by far the most important criteria..."

    Absolutely, assuming that includes airtightness. So when you've done that well how much heating do you need? Would the cost of a GSHP be justified? It seems to me far from obvious that it would be.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 9th 2008
     
    Skippy, if you get your bit well enough insulated the heat lost from the house will more than keep you warm and save him heating losses too!

    No heating system needed.
    • CommentAuthorharryhound
    • CommentTimeMar 11th 2008
     
    I too have an isolated "difficult" property, currently heated by anthracite, as near to pure carbon as I can get.
    GSHP is best thought of as cheap night storage. It works best in a high thermal capacity super insulated building.
    Some sort of secondary heating. which might be a BIG immersion heater, as run flat out in the depth of winter it is less efficient as it gets the ground temperature down near to freezing. Until it does, and causes heave to your patio, the rule of thumb is "the wetter the better" for ground conditions.

    They say a COP of 4 (put in 1KW get out 4KW) is possible to under floor heating. Into extra large radiators a COP of 3 is more likely. Meanwhile back at the power station and in those pylon wires, there might well be 3KW of gas being burned for every 1KW of electricity arriving at your meter. The rest is heating the cooling towers and the feet of birds on the wires. So you won't be much more efficient than burning natural gas if it is available.

    My bet is a log burner is the best supplementary source and it "goes" with a rural property.

    On the plus side it was given out at Ecobuild, based I think on German findings, that a heat pump left to trundle along and NOT cycling, has a mean time to failure of 22.6 years (I have an old Indesit 'fridge that has done well over 30 years). I don't think that condensing boilers will be as reliable.

    Harry
    • CommentAuthorharryhound
    • CommentTimeMar 11th 2008
     
    An afterthought: A representative from EON at the Ecobuild show, was enthusing about the kit they were having installed into municipal/housing association properties. The no gas ones in the countryside that often look like two bed bungalows, where there is little room for the ground loop and so they have to drill. By doing (say) 10 at a time probably to radiators, after insulation improvements to insulation, the makeover costs could be as little as 7K per property.
    I've managed to track down a woman who is a recipient of such an upgrading of her night storage heating with stove in living room.
    She is over the moon with the improvement in comfort and the reduced electricity bills; and does not spend so much time collecting drift wood.

    I do have a reservation about the housing of the heat pumps in such retrofitting: To save space inside the properties, these dinky heatpumps are housed in something little better than a bin store in the garden. I have a big Austrian freezer in a shed in my garden; it too is well over 30 years old and still going strong BUT it is covered in rust.

    I have yet to evaluate what the NOISE and START UP effects of a big compressor would be in reality. Any one know where I can go and see (say) a 2KW/8KW pump in action reasonably close to London. I would like to be able to put one in its own brick built small room off the hall in my bungalow but I don't want users of the bedrooms/living room complaining about the noise.
    The starting current for a Worcester Bosch one (for example) is given as 70 amps. Probably enough to flicker the lights and upset broadband connection; so not wanting to upset my distant neighbours, I asked the South East's electricity supplier "EDF", what they thought. The cheeky devils wrote back saying "send us 215 GBP and we will let you know".
    I reckon I could hire my own big compressor and do some experiments at that price.
  3.  
    Harry,

    I'm no where near London but can give you some insight. We have a 3kW/12kW GSHP in the basement of our house in Montreal. It's pretty quiet - rather louder than a large freezer but not much more. In the bedrooms (even though we have forced air) the noise is less than the circulation pump on the boiler that I had in the UK was. As for starting current, ours is closer to 100A - the lights to flicker but neither computer nor broadband connection is upset by this. If the flicker is a problem, a "hard start" kit can be added to reduce this. All single phase AC motors require a start and run capacitor anyway - the hard start kit is just a bigger capacitor which can supply the huge starting current without so much of a crowbar effect on the supply. [ Some people call these soft start kits - it's the same thing though ].

    As for siting the heatpump outside, it shouldn't be a problem if the rain is kept off. And even then, ASHP usually have part of the unit outside without too many ill effects. Our indoor GSHP is made of galvanized steel anyway so would not be unhappy to be outside.

    Hope this helps,

    Paul in Montreal.
  4.  
    Most of the properties I work on have mains gas
    Is there any good reason they should use anything else for space heating, for the next 20 years or so.
    this will leave lots of money in limited developement/improvement budgets for reduction in energy use rather
    than fancy 'green' ? energy production.

    Jim
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