Good idea, where do I sign up...?

J

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Sure is the existing stock - we sort of got started on this one here:

http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=923&page=1#Item_0

My thoughts have not changed. Just do it, no consultation, no discussion, just do!!!

S.

Can you imagine getting all five, ten, 20, or more, owners of a row of terraced houses, to insulate the exterior walls and roof spaces simultaneously? It's the only way to do it properly, and there are tens of thousands of these houses in the UK.

Yes, whatever happened to the old style envelope schemes? Give owners a choice - offer them an upgrade package which improves their properties rating in the Home Energy Report.... OR... they can choose not to have the work done and suffer the lost equity consequences of being the only badly rated house in the street.

Yes, but the the majority would be a lot better than they are now. Thermal bridging is becoming an obsession too - Windows are a thermal bridge - and a damn sight bigger than most. Are we proposing not to have them anymore - no, of course not. Anyway, what is the alternative - carry on upgrading at a snail's pace?

Posted By: tonyModern terraces with cavity party walls are a classic example of built in winter cooling systems

As far as I know cavity insulation is generally excluded from this cavity too!

I thought the idea of that kind of cavity was to block sound between houses - aren't they supposed to be full- filled with mineral wool or similar?

So it comes back to quality of build yet again

Most masonry party cavity walls are only required to have insulation in the perimeter to stop fire spread, and non within the cavity itself. Timber frames will have at least one leaf insulated with mineral wool, which never makes sense. In the past when we've done timber frame we've insulated both leaves to overcome this issue.

Posted By: BowmanThe existing housing stock should be a far bigger issue, and the standard of the existing stock is kind of irrelevant, it is what it is; so from a technical point of view "stop moaning and deal with it". A far more serious problem (surely) is general awareness of the issues we are about to face, and the political will to face facts.

Only a very few people seem to be able to put climate change, general environmental damage, resource depletion, and the ever rising global population demanding an ever more materialistic way of life into any kind of context.

Bowman, sorry if you don't like my moaning but the standard of the existing stock is far from irrelevant.

Not quite sure what point you are making with your second paragraph.

I'd love to do a new build, but trying to find an affordable plot that's big enough to grow my own food isn't exactly easy. Part of me would like to buy an existing house and do a serious upgrade on it that would set an example that other people could follow if/when they're ready. I know it depends on the type of house and the location, but is it possible to upgrade an existing house to zero energy/carbon levels?

John B, I'm after doing exactly the same thing and I think it is possible but I'm not sure that I'd go for zero carbon. I'd aim for getting the building to a state were it doesn't need a central heating system, just some simple back-up heating. If you can get to that stage then most of the energy savings have been made. Chasing the last 20% (by fitting PVs etc) will cost a disproportionate amount, money which could be better spent on reduce your impact elsewhere, like in transport or food etc. I would build in the potential to upgrade to zero carbon at a later date when prices have come down.

Maybe this is the point underlying Mike's question, i.e. why is there so much emphasis on making a small number of new homes zero carbon (which is expensive) when there is still a lot of "low hanging fruit" in the existing stock (and in transport) that can be had a much lower cost? All down to the media driven society we live in?

Posted By: Chris Wardle

Maybe this is the point underlying Mike's question, i.e. why is there so much emphasis on making a small number of new homes zero carbon (which is expensive) when there is still a lot of "low hanging fruit" in the existing stock (and in transport) that can be had a much lower cost? All down to the media driven society we live in?

In a nutshell

Chris, I agree with you. I've sold my house and am travelling in my van while I can afford the diesel! Waiting for the bottom of the market sounds good, but I'm a bit nervous about having my money in the financial system, as that's getting a bit shaky. I have a feeling that the effects of peak oil and climate change will become very apparent in only a few years, and want to be prepared, so it's getting the balance between making preparations in time, and waiting for the bottom of the market.

I guess that I need to be looking for:
A south facing house/bungalow, detached so that I don't have problems with unenlightened neighbours
In need of renovation but structurally sound
A good roof overhang so I can add loads of external insulation without altering the roof
A simple box shape without too many extensions sticking out, to make insulation easier
Space for a south facing conservatory for passive solar and growing space
Space to add porches on all external doors, so no external door opens directly to inside
No shading on the south facing roof for solar thermal and PV
Solid walls of some sort for thermal mass
Roof space suitable for piling in huge amounts of insulation
A floor that can be easily insulated, either solid that can have insulation on top, or timber that can be insulated and made draught free below

Anything to add to that lot?

Apart from the ease and value for resale, I guess it doesn't matter too much what the original building is, as long as it's structurally sound, as it's just something to hang the new insulation on, and provide thermal mass. I looked at a Woolaway bungalow recently that was tempting, as it was on a good sized plot and cheaper than a conventional building. Unfortunately it wasn't south facing.

Does that make sense, or is it the ramblings of an accountant who's read quite a bit about green building but hasn't done any?

JohnB - for you list...

An original chimney breast which can take a clean burn wood burning flue liner - or access to an outside wall for a flue pipe.
Some south facing sloping roof for later addition of PV when it's cheaper, solar h/w in the meantime.
Consideration of room layouts for shortening the hot water runs
Ditto for running an MHVR system...
Plot size for a possible heat pump (if insulation doesn't remove the need for heating)
A nice uninsulated flat roof extension to rip off and stick a new well insulated sedum roof onto.
Access for fitting water recycling tank (thousands of gallons)- although this is very expensive
And don't forget the location... you want loads of similar houses in the same street, you can either start a revolution when you show then your none existent bills, or try and get a "Low Carbon Community" project up and running.

I bought my 1960's ugly duckling eco disaster in in November last year. It included lack of cavity insulation, old boiler, huge room width rads without TRVs (backup plan if heatpump still required), suspended timber floors in one part, uninsulated concrete in a kitchen extension. gaps which you can see light through under recently fitted 2003 low-e windows (FENSA registered installer!!!) , upvc cladding over "white render sections" (which on Wednesday I found only have a 20mm cavity and can't be filled. My starting point is that for Nov 2nd to Feb 16th its used 1200 m3 of gas, or about 2.6 tonnes of emmissions - yikes. This is about 120m2 house, so not huge.

Still doing lots of research before committing to a course of action. Only thing I didn't get is a south facing plot. But the left hand roof does face just west of south. It also had 3 60 foot scott's pine in the back garden which is only 40 ft long :-(. There is now only 1, and a pile of logs 3 ft high, seasoning ready for next winter.

Simon

I think you have a good list there John. I am also considering the location in relation to local services and other places I might need to get to. A small market town is looking favourite at the moment. Regarding timing of your purchase, I have the same concerns, but I can't see the increasing cost of energy outstriping the declining value of property for a few years yet so still think you are better waiting (so long as your capital is protected from inflation).

Re the financial system, the government has shown that they will bail any institution which gets into trouble with tax payers money so no risk of loss of capital. Northern Rock has set that precident. What concerns me is the loss of purchasing power of that capital. Frankly, I've completely lost faith in paper money. There are other hard assets apart from property. I've got my rainy day money stashed here:-

http://goldmoney.com/

You might want to start listening to this:-

http://www.financialsense.com/fsn/main.html

Great information on how to protect yourself from the coming energy crisis and global hyperinflation.