Green Building Forum - How to reduce national peak electricity demand

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

tony — Fri, 29 Jul 2016 21:35:34 +0100

How to reduce national peak electricity demand:-

Smart plugs (web linked plugs) to control domestic washing machines and freezers.

These would stop freezers working during peak demand periods, on their own these would save us a power station if everyone had one, not impossible.

Similarly not using washing machines during peak demand would greatly help us.

We have a problem meeting peak demand but the system easily copes most of the time.

There could be financial incentives or laws to assist us, either would work.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

gravelld — Fri, 29 Jul 2016 21:48:38 +0100

As I said in the other thread, where's the analysis of where domestic demand is coming from?

Is it really appliances?

What about storage heaters. Water heaters...

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

gyrogear — Fri, 29 Jul 2016 21:58:15 +0100

It's heating that does the damage...
(and OVERheating...).

Solar thermal air can go a long way towards reducing heating demand.

It's just a question of getting the word out...

gg

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

tony — Fri, 29 Jul 2016 22:36:56 +0100

Solar can't help much with heating demand as the sun shines the least when the heat is needed the most

Freezers form a reasonable enough of a chunk of the base load for them to be targeted especially as they can survive being switched off for a few hours.

Heating is a more difficult fix but I reckon insulation helps, widespread EWI is my favourite route.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

SteamyTea — Fri, 29 Jul 2016 23:02:21 +0100

I think the main problem is overheating and associated heat losses.
I easily saved 30% of my domestic usage, then another 20% with a tiny bit of technology.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

tony — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 07:13:26 +0100

I agree and can foresee a point where we introduce maximum tenperature regimes for heated buildings.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

gravelld — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 07:26:23 +0100

We aren't going to get anywhere by telling people they are using too much energy. At best that's only going to be a sticking plaster, and a politically unacceptable one.

We simply have to fix the system; the domestic housing stock.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

gyrogear — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 13:38:41 +0100

Posted By: tonySolar can't help much with heating demand as the sun shines the least when the heat is needed the most

well the answer to that is a no-brainer: capture the heat while it's there, and store it for later...
Ã la Drake Landing...

http://www.dlsc.ca/

gg

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

skyewright — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 14:00:53 +0100

Posted By: gyrogear
Posted By: tonySolar can't help much with heating demand as the sun shines the least when the heat is needed the most

well the answer to that is a no-brainer: capture the heat while it's there, and store it for later...
Ã la Drake Landing...

Out of interest what latitude do you live at?

I believe Drake Landing is near Calgary, so just about spot on 51N. That's about the same latitude as Winchester, making Drake Landing South of the great majority of the UK.

I think solar energy is great, but it's not evenly distributed and that has to be considered...

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

fostertom — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 14:47:20 +0100

Posted By: skyewrightDrake Landing South of the great majority of the UK

and extremely hotter in summer and extremely colder in winter. Drakes Landing is pioneering old-tech - we can do far better now.

In mainland UK incl even plucky little Scotland, given favourable view of low southern sky (i.e. fairly unobstructed above 20o elevation), solar collection is adequate for the spaceheating requirement of a near-PH right thro mid winter, given attainable thermal storage capacity (i.e. not talking batteries). Tho not for water heating.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

barney — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 16:23:56 +0100

So when do we start building then ?

And how many per annum?

It'll be while - so time to dust off a few big thermal generation units that we've shut down of late

Barney

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

tony — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 16:59:33 +0100

Gyro, I already have my own version of dlsc under my own house but this is rare and part of the reason why I don't have a heating system.

I disagree that dlsc is old tech, it works where temperatures fall to -30 regularly in winter and they get all heating and hot water now 24/7 from the sun as the only heat source.

I agree that we can do it in the UK

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

skyewright — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 18:40:03 +0100

Posted By: fostertomIn mainland UK incl even plucky little Scotland, given favourable view of low southern sky (i.e. fairly unobstructed above 20o elevation), solar collection is adequate for the spaceheating requirement of a near-PH right thro mid winter, given attainable thermal storage capacity (i.e. not talking batteries). Tho not for water heating.

Not sure where you get your 20 degrees from. According some notes I happe to have to hand, on Dec 21st here at 57N the Sun manages 9 degrees at solar noon. IIRC it doesn't reach an elevation of 20 degrees till some time in Feb?

PS. I'm happy to say that we are blessed with a less than 5 degree horizon from E through S to (nearly) W, so we get good passive solar gain any time there is any. If we had a 20 degree horizon our heating bill would be much greater.

Edit: typo had => hand.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

SteamyTea — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 22:57:50 +0100

Climate (and weather) is much more than just latitude.

One of the reasons that the UK became populated, and the Swiss Alps are pretty low population, is because of our climate (population densities UK 255/km^2, Swiss 198/km^2, England only 420/km^2). And I suspect that 10,000 ago the Alps were even lower.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

Greenfish — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 10:42:28 +0100

Monitoring my own peaks in power consumption it is the washing machine, dishwasher, oven and kettle that are to blame. Even when my 3kW PV is running at max these devices need top up fom the grid. These peaks could be reduced if only they heated slower and spread the energy over a longer time i.e. were less powerful, but it seems no one is designing appliances for that.

Where are the insulated ovens that modulate the element at a lower frequency? Why don't we all have camping kettles? etc. Hot feed washing machines taking DHW from my TS or a 500W element rather than a 3kW one, let alone the smart plug. Everyone looks at the total energy consumed, so costs of boiling a kettle make it trivial, but no one looks at the true cost of the instantaneous demands these devices make. The cumulative effect of kettles is why the National Grid still check the TV shedules for tea-making time advert breaks in popular programmes.

It is not about tell people to use less energy, although it would be great if they did, but about our devices being *intelligently designed* to spread the load over a longer period.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

gyrogear — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 11:41:11 +0100

I live at 48Â°N with a basically full & uninterrupted view of the sun from SE to SW.
Weather-wise, I get 62% of theoretical insolation (due to tides, winds, cloud)

I'm trying to do like Tony - store heat under the house.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annualized_geo_solar
That's why I paid my Â£5 - to pick you-guys' brains
gg

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

tony — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 16:49:59 +0100

Peak demand for the nation is the combination of us all switching things on at the same time, were we to delay some of these then peak power would drop, lower powered appliances does not make a perceivable difference.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

SteamyTea — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 17:14:50 +0100

One reason to use E7/10 type systems along with storage heating.
The trouble with natural gas being so very cheap, there is no need to bother.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

Greenfish — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 17:49:54 +0100

Posted By: tonyPeak demand for the nation is the combination of us all switching things on at the same time, were we to delay some of these then peak power would drop, lower powered appliances does not make a perceivable difference.

Lower power appliances does not change the overal energy consumption, but it would lower the peaks. Over the PV generating season it is only those peaks that mean I import energy. The highest peak is when we all go and make tea at the same time on a cold dark day, usually during Xmas. The kettle is neligable for total household power consumption, but synchronised boiling is significant when you have millions of households doing it.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

SteamyTea — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 17:58:55 +0100

I think that only shifts the problem to a lower level peak, it does not get rid of it. And you will have greater thermal losses overall as well.
The peaks and troughs of the national grid are well understood and catered for. Usually what happens is that the lower carbon technologies take precedent over the high carbon generation, but all the easily controllable generation is layered on top of the baseload. So decrease the peaks and you just increase the baseload, not real saving when our baseload is currently coal and nuclear, with a bit of hydro thrown in.
You can look at the 5 minute data here:
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/

You will notice that coal is a very small percentage at the moment as it is summer shut down time. Different story come winter.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

tony — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 19:31:06 +0100

I don't think low powered kettles would do anything to change the shape or height of the peak assumming the same ammount of energy was used

eg. 3 kW for ther mins = 1 kW for 9 mins. No difference when a large number of consumers are doing it, it would be slightly annoying for many.

There is a case to made that in the 9 min case heat losses during boiling would be greater using more energy in total raising the height of the peak, exactly the opposite of what was intended!

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

gravelld — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 19:41:59 +0100

It's still 3x the large number of consumers though... am I missing something? Some 'smoothing'?

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

barney — Sun, 31 Jul 2016 21:23:28 +0100

Variable commercial tariffs would be far more effective - domestically we tend not to have that much choice

An example would be to create ice slurry at night for a store of coolth rather than running heat pumps during the diurnal peak - after we stop bloody architects designing south facing glass boxes of course

Barney

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

tony — Mon, 01 Aug 2016 07:31:23 +0100

Dan, with a very large number of consumers there is no smoothing. The total is the same so the height of the peak is too, technically two kettles less but as I have suggested other effects come into play to more than that negate this.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

fostertom — Mon, 01 Aug 2016 09:00:01 +0100

Posted By: skyewrightNot sure where you get your 20 degrees from

It was from memory - I'll check when I have a moment to dive into PVGIS.
The principle is that sun power w/m2 on optimally inclined receiver, below a certain angle of sun elevation, regardless of location or season, isn't worth collecting, so horizon obstructions below that elevation are unimportant.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

renewablejohn — Tue, 02 Aug 2016 23:30:09 +0100

Easiest way to reduce peak demand is to stagger regional TV output by 5 minutes per region then channel timings by 1 minute within region using extended commercial break of say 5 minutes for on the hour changeover time so you dont miss the start of a programme.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

ringi — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 10:03:46 +0100

Posted By: renewablejohnEasiest way to reduce peak demand is to stagger regional TV output by 5 minutes per region then channel timings by 1 minute within region using extended commercial break of say 5 minutes for on the hour changeover time so you dont miss the start of a programme.

"Live" TV is just a odd concept once you have a reasonable hard disk based recorder, we don't watch adverts these days.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

tony — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 10:07:43 +0100

I can't see staggering making sufficient difference unless it is by several hours.

Stop drinking hot drinks might help.

The peak is te sum of everything that we are doing, moving a use by a few minutes does not have an impact.

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

renewablejohn — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 19:51:37 +0100

Posted By: tonyI can't see staggering making sufficient difference unless it is by several hours.

Stop drinking hot drinks might help.

The peak is the sum of everything that we are doing, moving a use by a few minutes does not have an impact.

Dont believe it a matter of minutes makes all the difference just look at just one episode of eastenders to understand the problem the National Grid has and its only a UK phenomenum.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTM2Ck6XWHg

How to reduce national peak electricity demand

SteamyTea — Wed, 03 Aug 2016 22:29:24 +0100

The French have peaks too.