Interesting article on proposals for farm reform that the National Trust are launching today (Thursday 4 August). Argues that Brexit should be used as an opportunity to radically rethink how farming subsidies can be used to support a food system fit for the future. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/03/the-guardian-view-on-farming-not-about-food?CMP=share_btn_fb

We should be doing that with or without and thinking like this good to engage in. There is a conflict between food and fuel already. We should sort this one out now.

Posted By: SteamyTeahow much you want to spend on food and how food secure the nation should be.

The balance of that has tilted massively to 'cheap but insecure'. Food security is way off the priority list.

First within UK post-WW2, then EU Europe-wide, used to be about food security, but since Thatcher UK led the way in dismantling that (farm subsidies), in favour of buying-in cheap from all over. Anyway UK's now out of that residual security.

UK farmers are paid to take top grade land into alternative uses because it's cheaper to import, on the assumption that half or more of the imports' true (whole life cycle) cost can continue to be externalised i.e. paid by other poorer people in far off places and/or suffered in environmental degradation etc etc.

As the pressure and trend to include all LCA costs gathers momentum, imported food will begin to reflect e.g. the true costs of its air-miles. As well as other coming nations like China buying up huge swathes of agricultural land globally. UK's 'import or die' policy will collapse, leaving an 'independent' nation quite unable to feed itself.

Numerous studies show that organic farming is much more productive by any measure, both short (production per acre) and long-term (e.g. sustainable soil condition), except by the measure of labour input. Organic is labour intensive. That may be just what we need, as technology continues to facilitate hyper-productivity aka elimination of other human jobs, and with that, the means of putting spending money into the population's pockets.

And could I suppose be used in organics as well, given AI that doesn't depend on straight lines of monocrop

Posted By: barneyI though the current plan was to grow more to feed AD and gasification plants so we could green the gas grid to generate greener electricity through current gas fired generation - or that's the impression I have on here of late

Regards

Barney

That's a load of cobblers, not the fact we're doing it, but that it's green.

When I last looked at this, I came to the conclusion that the UK has more than enough land to feed itself (less than 10% is urbanised after all).
What would happen is that our diets would change and our environmental credentials would go out the window.

There is often conflicting figures for food security depending on which metric is used i.e. value, tonnage, calorific value, necessity/non-necessity.

There is a lot of unused agricultural land, this tends to be the lower grades (why farm less productive areas when you don't have to) and there is a shift towards more intensive farming of livestock (keep them in a shed, it stops them trampling fields).

The scientific studies I have read about organic/low intensity farming (was not the area I was studying) showed that it was, in global terms, unsustainable. The studies that show that it is better are tending to being comparing different land types, in different areas and different climates, and fail to take labour into account properly.

Generally, global food production is pretty good, food distribution and price variation is terrible.
And the food waste in the developed world is bordering on the insane.

Yes, I still have 1 1/2 soggy water biscuits in my bread bin.

Posted By: fostertomAnd could I suppose be used in organics as well, given AI that doesn't depend on straight lines of monocrop

There is nothing wrong with straight lines of monocrop (just oversized fields of them), I expect the robots will be designed for them. There is also nothing stopping the next line being of a different crop, as with robots you don’t need to destroy the crops by driving over them while harvesting them.

Posted By: ringiThere is nothing wrong with straight lines of monocrop (just oversized fields of them)

To notch it up another step from 'mere' organic, Permaculture wouldn't agree, placing much store by creating working ecosystems, with diverse plantings/interplantings to e.g protect carrots by placing repugnant onions close by, and for mutual mycorrhizal support; in sunnier climes multi-storey planting (trees above bushes above groundhog plants) for shade plus max sun capture; as animal habitat also - hedgehogs vs slugs.

Any even garden-size area of monoculture is a relative desert which struggles to escape pest attack by natural eco-system means, without resorting to drastic means, incl traditional Victorian kitchen garden things like dusting with arsenic - orderly monoculture thinking has been going on since the start of the agricultural revolution.

Now we know better.

Why not put a row of onions between each row of carrots? (I don’t see the rows as being the issue.)

Posted By: renewablejohnThere just parasites of the subsidy

Have you read the article (here's the original http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/news/the-future-of-our-countryside )?

NT wants the 'per acre' basis of the subsidies abolished, subsidies only given where the 'market' cannot deliver the 'common good'.

Posted By: renewablejohnfarmers priced out of buying land

Oh how sad - but plenty more where that came from.

If they are all; Farmers, Landowners, The National Trust, etc. all in receipt of subsidy payments. Why do you single out the NT as parasites

Isn't it all about the changeover from the single payment scheme, to the basic payment scheme, as part of UKs CAP reform. If you weren't claiming under the former you can't claim the new.
I understand you have to be an active farmer and if you don't have enough entitlement, (land) you can transfer it to an active farmer. Presumably it cuts down on administration. I suppose they think that under 5Ha isn't sufficient to tick all the other boxes regarding crop diversification etc..
I guess too that part of the reform is to discourage "hobby farming" rightly or wrongly.
At least that's what I understand.

As for NT, RSPB, Wildlife trusts, along with some enlightened private individuals; I think they are generally seen as bulwark against the industrialisation of the countryside. Sure there may be exceptions on odd occasions of their behaviour, but as large scale landowners you have to compare their overall behaviour, like for like, against others, wheat barons, intensive pig/poultry rearing, and all that their operations demand, excessive pesticides, herbicides, artificial fertilizers etc..
Another big landowner MoD have I understand quite a reasonable "eco" record, especially considering the nature of their work.


Here's a far bigger conundrum to chew on. The CAP was, and still is AFAIK, designed to assist "FOOD" production. Now, what about AD plants that use Food crops to produce gas.
Q.1 Do they still get CAP subsidies?
Q.2. Who checks that there's not a "con" in the system, and that landowners/farmers are claiming CAP food subsidy and then letting it rot (bio-digest)?
Q.3. The food crop they declare is now an energy crop, is there a lower CAP payment?
Q. 4. All this bearing in mind they will be in receipt of RHI for the gas they produce, Two bites of the subsidy slice??

Nothing to do with the changeover in my opinion just some lazy tike in the RPA could not be bothered to process 16500 applications as the computer system was in a mess so came up with the crazy idea of having a 5 ha exclusion rule for England but a 3 ha exclusion rule for Scotland Wales and Northern Ireland.

As for NT, RSPB and Wildlife trusts there no different for food production then your average golf course and I hope you would not advocate all golf courses receive a cap payment.

Am I?

"Regenerative Agriculture, Beyond Sustainability "
https://www.permaculture.co.uk/videos/regenerative-agriculture-beyond-sustainability