Home  5  Books  5  Magazines  5  News  5  GreenPro  5  HelpDesk  5  Your Cart  5  Register  5  Green Living Forum
Not signed in (Sign In)

Categories



Green Building
"The most popular book on green building in the UK today."
New fourth edition in two volumes!

Order both books now for the combined price of just £17.00
and free delivery!

(free delivery applies to UK addresses only).

Or get both books for just £15.00 if purchased at the same time as a subscription to Green Building magazine





Zurich Connect Home Insurance

Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.




  1.  
    Say I build a house (urban location, mains services available) to passiv-haus standards install 40 or so evac tubes, a thermal store and MHRV in a new house and still have £10,000 left to spend / invest in the building... (unlikely I know... )...

    ...what would you spend the cash on, in terms of the building, (ie women, [or men], drink, drugs and fast cars are not an option [in this context])...?

    ... candidates so far, (above alternative notwithstanding):

    - 1.5 kWp of PV
    - an urban wind turbine (3kw ish..?),
    - a micro CHP unit (or at least pre order one)
    - wood chip boiler for DHW and top up (in this context; as opposed to gas)....

    ...thinking about simple/dynamic economic / C02 payback, feasibility investment value... etc etc...

    J
    •  
      CommentAuthorPaulT
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2008 edited
     
    The simple answer is that there is no simple answer; However there is a though process...

    Future Proof.

    Whatever you can not afford now make sure that the building is easy to upgrade.

    This may mean adding extra service runs; for example grey water pipes, Solar loops, Wiring for PV...

    One of my favourite measures (for example) is to run piping to a fire place so that a biomas back boiler equiped stove can be added later. Cost is small future potential is very low carbon heating when cheap wood pellets (stoves and fuel) become much cheaper in the UK.

    In the mean time invest the balance in renwable companies. In a few years the moeny can be used to buy cheap PV systems (You will have already made sure the roof is easy to upgrade and the wiring is in place...
    •  
      CommentAuthorPaulT
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2008
     
    Another approach...

    The embodied energy in building is huge (700Kg/m2 is typical in the UK).

    Use the extra funds to substitute high embodied energy materials with low embodied energy and sequestered carbon materials...

    Examples:

    Recycled aggregate concrete blocks.
    Replace plasterboard with high density celluse board.
    Replace large timbers/steel with GLuelam beams.
    ...
    •  
      CommentAuthorPaulT
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2008
     
    Another approach (not simple is it?)

    Reduce energy (and water) usage in the home (usually a better aproach than generating extra energy).

    For example:

    Energy meters.
    Automatic night time shutters
    Complete low energy light design (Use low energy daylight quality bulbs that are superior and less likely to be substituted).
    A+ whiter goods, most imprtantly the fridge - get the best you can as this is usually the biggest electrical consumption in a home..

    ------------------------------------------
    THere are other way also emerging - such as interseasonal storage (Probalby need more than 10K through)....
    •  
      CommentAuthorali.gill
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2008
     
    energy efficient electricals - http://www.greenconsumerguide.com/domesticll.php?CLASSIFICATION=79
    organic paint finishes in fact i think 10k could easily be eaten up by specification of natural finishes to flooring, walls, furniture, bedding, furniture, etc, over the usual cost of mass produced items.
    how about investing in a workshop and tools to renovate, refurbish, re-use old furniture, fittings, etc. and a decent greenhouse to grow your own food.
  2.  
    Posted By: PaulTnot simple is it?


    ..did I say it would be simple...?

    J

    :wink:
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2008
     
    pv would be my choice. 3g windows should be included already. MHRV too.
  3.  
    How about one of these parked on the drive:-

    http://evolution.loremo.com/content/view/13/47/lang,en/

    I understand they will cost 11,000E, so you will have some change.
  4.  
    How about you give it to the builders as a bonus
    thanking them for all there hard work and attension to detail
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeMar 22nd 2008
     
    Perhaps use the £10K to pay the premium charged for electricity on a "green tariff". Check the small print but with the right supplier it might be possible to get ALL your electricity from a 100% green source for the next 20 years. Whereas a £10K windmill or £10K worth of PV stands no chance unless you have very small house. Main problem is it just isn't sexy.

    http://www.greenelectricity.org/

    http://www.greenelectricity.org/tariffdetail.php?tariff=gde1®ion=regEast
  5.  
    Chris,

    Nice one...! ...however as I only live a 5min walk from work (new house is on plot next door) it might fall foul of the cars, women, drugs and drink restriction....

    Jim,

    Had thought about just that, looking at timber frame so what about relating it to the pressure test results, not sure about the whole £10k though....

    J
  6.  
    You're building to passiv haus so skip the wood chip boiler as you probably just overheat :shamed: or never use it.

    PV for me, but perhaps not just yet ... take the "green tariff" option above for a couple of years, keep the money burning a hole and then implement more PV when the pay-off period becomes more palatable.

    Also consider rain water harvesting, at least for toilets, perhaps for washing?
  7.  
    Posted By: mybarnconversion
    "skip the wood chip boiler as you probably just overheat or never use it."

    Hot water...?

    (see also:

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1458&page=1#Item_9

    and

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=1453&page=1#Item_1 )

    RE: PV starting to see a bit of consensus on this one, particularly as in reality to the £10k in the real world scenario would probably be a post completion re mortgage number rather than actually 'spare' money,

    Thanks,

    J
  8.  
    James

    I think a bonus relating to pressure test result is a great idea,

    a lot of guy I know and work with have no interest in details when it come to insulation
    you could invent some scale incentive for each percantage increase above regs.
    perhaps a grand in cash per scale increase would do it , up to say 3
  9.  
    Jim,

    That was along the lines I was thinking, any ideas about any other workmanship reliant low energy aspects that could be included...?

    Nothing springs to mind that could be measurable...

    J
    • CommentAuthorBowman
    • CommentTimeMar 24th 2008
     
    A greenhouse, a potting shed, a cold-frame, seed, fruit trees and bushes, hire a rotavator, build some raised beds, you get the drift.....
    • CommentAuthorTheDoctor
    • CommentTimeMar 27th 2008 edited
     
    10K will buy you 1.5KW of PV now.
    where are prices of this going to go?
    what will it buy you in 5 years time?

    As your house is at a really good standard now, maybe banking the cash for a good future upgrade is the way to go.

    Pre-ordering a technology is not nearly as good as buying generation 3, where all the bugs are ironed out.

    How much was the first DVD player? £500? £600? they're under £30 now!



    This advice is on the basis that the house is already up, to Passiv Haus standards, and incorporates the technology noted in your post.
  10.  
    I wouldn't put the cash anyway near a bank, James. By the time the taxman and inflation have finished with you you'll barely be able to buy a solar power calculator never mind a PV array! Silver bullion's the place for it (real money that holds its value).
  11.  
    Posted By: Chris WardleSilver bullion's the place for it (real money that holds its value).


    Chris, there is no such thing as "real money". It's all a collective agreement as to value - there is no intrinsic value.

    If I had a building that was up to spec, I wouldn't spend more money on diminishing returns. Given how things look like they may be going, I'd spend the 10k on a decent wine cellar so that at least I had some way of enjoying myself if/when the brown stuff does start to hit the fan. If it doesn't, then it's no worse an investment than anything else - and at least the process of "liquidation" can be pretty pleasant ;)

    Paul currently in Phoenix (Arizona) but heading back to Montreal
    • CommentAuthorllwynbedw
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2008
     
    Posted By: Paul in Montreal
    Posted By: Chris WardleSilver bullion's the place for it (real money that holds its value).

    Chris, there is no such thing as "real money". It's all a collective agreement as to value - there is no intrinsic value.

    Yes, but the collective agreement that silver and gold have persistent value has held over several thousand years, whereas no single paper currency has lasted anything like that long. In that sense, he has a point. However, I'd advise people not to take Chris' approach unless they believe that the risk that the value of their savings and paper currency will decline to zero is larger than the risk of a dramatic (and unfavourable) fluctuation in precious metal markets...

    Dan
  12.  
    Interesting reading in the "where to put your £10k while you decised what to do with it" debate:-

    http://www.goldmoney.com/en/commentary.php#current

    Metal money was always a tad inconvenient because of its weight but now most transactions are electronic why can't we have debit cards backed by bullion and conduct transactions that way? No need for fiat money anymore. I think Mr Turk of GoldMoney has cottoned on to this and now offers a facility to conduct transactions in gold grams.
  13.  
    ... lovely .... all very interesting I'm sure... however.....

    Posted By: James Norton...what would you spend the cash on, in terms of the building, (ie women, [or men], drink, drugs and fast cars are not an option [in this context])...?

    ... candidates so far, (above alternative notwithstanding):

    - 1.5 kWp of PV
    - an urban wind turbine (3kw ish..?),
    - a micro CHP unit (or at least pre order one)
    - wood chip boiler for DHW and top up (in this context; as opposed to gas)....

    ...thinking about simple/dynamic economic / C02 payback, feasibility investment value... etc etc...


    :wink:
  14.  
    don't take out the remorgage/ use the money to repay some debts. Then you can get off the work treadmill sooner, avoiding all the environmental damage this does. maybe you could invest a small amount in the sort of thing bowman is sugesting.
    We're never going to save theenvironment by buying more stuff.
    Ok, some of the suggestions here are seensible and may allow you to consume less non renewable energy in the long run. But i have a serrious point here the first question should not be what more can i buy to make me greener but what can i do without?
  15.  
    Couldn't agree more Martin.
    • CommentAuthorNoyers
    • CommentTimeApr 1st 2008
     
    Definitely the wine cellar plus the wine; it might be a better than choice than putting it in the (any) Bank.
    If you drink enough you will cease to worry whether you are green enough!
    •  
      CommentAuthorScanheat
    • CommentTimeApr 11th 2008
     
    I agree with PaulT. Future proof is an excellent idea. One of the easiest way to future proof your heating is to install a water storage 'buffer' tank.
    Not too expensive, around £2500 will buy a good size >800 litre tank with proper insulation and three high effiency indirect coils.
    I have a similar system fitted into my house, 1800 litre tank. It is now connected to 10sqm flat panel solar panels, an Aquafree air source heat pump and there is still one more coil waiting the pellet burner or similar. The system does take some room though so maybe it is best in new developments or if you have an outbuilding, to be placed there.
    Also, the energy consumption monitoring is a good idea.
    • CommentAuthorSimonH
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2008 edited
     
    You can stick £15,000 in tax free index linked savings certificated (per adult). Guaranteed to beat the rate of inflation as they are linked to the RPI. http://www.nsandi.com/products/ilsc/index.jsp - [Edit] you're best to keep them for 3 years - and then see what to spend them on ;-)

    2 companies that I am aware of are starting up continous roll PV production this year. http://www.g24i.com/pages,manufacturing,11.html in wales and http://www.nanosolar.com/ in the usa. Prices are expected to be up to 1/10 of current prices (but I bet is end up around 1/3 after system, integration and batteries are added). g24i doen't seem to be doing roof mount panels yet, and nanosolar are only shipping to secure government type customer so their product doesn't get reverse engineered. My guess is that about 2 years you'll see domestic products.

    I don't think wood pellets or wood fuel will get cheaper - the price of energy is linked. If oil goes up so do gas and coal as people will use that to provide heat or generate electricity intead. They've already started throwing a 5-10% mix of bio fuels into some coal fired powerstatios - so I don't see wood supply staying cheaper than other fuel sources (but it's a lot less CO2 emmitting of course).

    One thing I'd seriously consider is getting the battery bank / inverters for a PV system - I don't suppose these will change prices as much as PV itself over the next few years. What you could then do is charge the bank up a night using economy 7 and use run off batteries in the day - don't know if it's cost effective - but it's an idea.

    Simon
    • CommentAuthorSimonH
    • CommentTimeApr 15th 2008
     
    Or have a think about a DC ring main for running low power devices on. But, Is there a standard voltage? Nope

    So maybe a smaller scale charging station with a high efficiency AC/DC converter, and try and locate all your things like DVD players, DECT phones and wifi boxes near to each other so they can draw their power from a central DC ring. You could then put bits of the system on a ring that shuts down at night from a master swtich to cut out all the standby use. My "rule of thumb" is that 1W on standby costs £1 a year. If you're potentially running off your free solar power in future - getting this right now would be a good investment - your buying copper cables - which will go up in price not down.

    Also consider looking at the specs on everything you buy - what is the lowest power DECT phone you can buy. What about your router? Does your Freeview TV Tuner need to stay on 24x7? Do you really need a 50" plamsa - why not get a 37" LCD (with LED backlighting) and design the seating so you sit a bit nearer ;-) Is your PC low power? Like the VeryPC Green PC? http://www.very-pc.co.uk/?section=greenpcs. Don't get carried awy though - as someone ealready pointed out - buying more stuff isn't very green.

    You'll soon be up to £10k. If not - get yourself a used Toyota Prius (just out of warranty) and have a conversion to LiIon cells with a home charging facility and grid connect it for supplying the house with electric. Range is 40 miles in electric only mode, or you get about 40kwh of juice in the batteries which you can pull through into the house. But you won't get all that for £10k.

    Bowman raised a good point - the garden. Look up "edible landscaping"! No daffodils, hostas or bamboo - just pretty plants that also produce food. Get a professional in to start you off with a year round organic food supply, with zero carbon miles. Use you grey water for watering and "you know what" as compost. Maybe a bit far for some people - but a separate composting toilet somewhere in the house might be an option. (My wife says no way )

    Simon.
  16.  
    Ok so now were are post planning ansd seriously onto the nitty gritty:

    As the construction industry and interest rates take a dive one might think the 10k is more likley however untill you add in the variable that I am part of the construction industry as an architect.. ...doh...

    So in reality looks like we might be in a position where never mind the PV / CHP (and gold or silver bullion...!) we may need to be looking a a phased solution for some of the more essentials...

    Therefore I have created another thread:

    "How to save £10,000 on an Eco-house..."
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=2826

    J
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
 
   
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   
Logout    

© Green Building Press