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General: Smart Meters

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    Posted By: fostertomThat needn't continue, technically, for them any more than any other purpose. Having quarantined bandwidth sections offers no security anyway.


    It's not security that's important for the allocated spectrum segments, it's accessibility and availability. Unless by security you mean guarantee of access. There's no technical reason why "baddies" can't disrupt certain frequencies now - but the security part is usually meant to imply things like encryption etc., not raw signal access.

    Spectrum allocation is, of course, important to ensure that inadvertent blocking doesn't occur by devices which don't conform to the bands they're supposed to be operating in.

    Paul in Montreal.

    p.s. bandwidth and spectrum are not really quite the same thing
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2016
     
    Posted By: Paul in Montrealbandwidth and spectrum are not really quite the same thing
    I know - spectrum it is.
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      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2016
     
    from Tom's link: "If you were to suddenly flip a switch and open up every Wi-Fi access point in the ten to 15 largest cities in the U.S., everyone in those cities would suddenly have free ubiquitous communications everywhere.”"

    That's somewhat naive. There are many places that have a much higher density of people and where there aren't necessarily the requisite number of APs.

    I'm all for the goal of ubiquitous mesh networks but they're not as rose-tinted and fluffy as that.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2016
     
    Why not just create a mesh system for vehicles. These self driving cars are going to be using a reliable wireless system. So not hard to piggyback on the back of that. And very few of us are far from a vehicle, and as most vehicles are sitting idle most of the time, so do not need safety critical connection, it would be a shame not to use the resource.
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      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2016
     
    Nice one. Or a mesh system based on washing machines.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeNov 11th 2016
     
    Don's see the point of washing machines being part of a public mesh, may as well just use a router.
    There are cars all over the place, even in places they should not be in.
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      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 12th 2016
     
    But aren't w m/cs (and IoT things in general) more ubiquitous than routers in particular, where people live and congregate? I suppose cars are more ubiquitous near the middle of fields, great for cows - or ramblers.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 12th 2016
     
    Posted By: fostertomI suppose cars are more ubiquitous near the middle of fields

    But there are probably more washing machines at the bottom of canals. Which is more important? I think we should make every shopping trolley part of the IoT; that would really ensure universal coverage.
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      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 12th 2016
     
    You think you're joking?!! That is what 'they' intend.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 12th 2016
     
    Posted By: fostertomYou think you're joking?!! That is what 'they' intend.

    You think you're making a point? You have to make sure people understand what the h**l you're thinking.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 12th 2016
     
    'They' intend that practically every 'thing' - toasters, heating systems, shopping trolleys, cars of course - will be IoT-connected ('Internet of Things') via internet, so 'they' will know where everything is and what it's doing.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 12th 2016
     
    Posted By: fostertom'They' intend that practically every 'thing' - toasters, heating systems, shopping trolleys, cars of course - will be IoT-connected ('Internet of Things') via internet, so 'they' will know where everything is and what it's doing.

    Ah, OK, yes I agree. They should absolutely know where every shopping trolley is. Just not how many wheels it currently has, or how rusty it is. Ditto cars.

    Which brings me to a question I asked myself earlier tonight - what's the state of the art in ensuring that your own IoT in your house is actually private and not a part of a greater IoT in the world outside? (Apologies if this is entirely the wrong forum)
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 13th 2016
     
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 13th 2016
     
    Posted By: djhYou have to make sure people understand what the h**l you're thinking
    Thanks for pulling me up Dave - may have slipped on that lately, when going out beyond ecobuilding.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 13th 2016
     
    Posted By: fostertom'They' intend that practically every 'thing' - toasters, heating systems, routers, smart meters and burglar alarms already, shopping trolleys, cars of course - will be IoT-connected ('Internet of Things') via internet, so 'they' will know where everything is and what it's doing.
    They rightly promise stupendous efficiencies and resource-use reductions from all this, but much more interesting to 'them' is more data about us, our patterns of behaviour, our preferences, to 'mine' and sell to the targeted marketing industry.

    But already the venture capitalists who power all these start-up biz ideas are getting wary of a 'bubble burst' in that area, like the dotcom bubble-burst. Trouble (to them) is, that as data-mining and algorithmic marketing gets more and more effective and ubiquitous, the population has less and less 'real' disposable income, a steepening curve with no idea where it'll end.
    • CommentAuthortorrent99
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2016
     
    Posted By: djh


    Which brings me to a question I asked myself earlier tonight - what's the state of the art in ensuring that your own IoT in your house is actually private and not a part of a greater IoT in the world outside? (Apologies if this is entirely the wrong forum)


    Well the best protection is an Air Gap! (Don't connect your house to the Internet!).

    That kind of nullifies the whole IoT proposition though.

    The basic assumption you need to have is that if the bad guys can talk to your devices at all then they will be hacked. You can't rely in anyway on the IOT devices themselves being secure.

    So you need to control access to the network the IOT devices are sitting on. Right now I'd make sure they were on a separate network in your house than is only accessible via a VPN. Then you'd need VPN software on you "smartphone" to connect to the IOT network, so you can control them. A bit complicated, a definitely technically beyond 99% of users!
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2016
     
    Most IOT devices are wireless so even an air gap isn't enough :-)
    • CommentAuthortorrent99
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2016
     
    Posted By: CWattersMost IOT devices are wireless so even an air gap isn't enough :-)


    ;-) ;-)

    True, but to exploit the weaknesses in the WiFi protocols you'd need to get in range!
    ( Which is a VERY good reason not to have a network connected door lock!)
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2016
     
    Posted By: CWattersMost IOT devices are wireless so even an air gap isn't enough :-)
    Except that you still need to allow them to connect to your WiFi. If you don't they cannot connect (which also means you cannot control them). This might help https://www.grc.com/nat/nat.htm but it really is a bit hard core.
    • CommentAuthortorrent99
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2016
     
    Actually 99% of home routers do the NATing out of the box. Trouble is if you want to talk to your devices outside your own network I. e. from t'internet, you'll need to punch some holes back through the firewall... and if you can get through them, so can the bad guys. Best not let IOT things control things you care about.
  21.  
    STILL , no one has explained how smart meters will save energy. Its a red herring.

    Energy storage is the only answer
    • CommentAuthorCWatters
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2016
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: torrent99</cite>Actually 99% of home routers do the NATing out of the box. Trouble is if you want to talk to your devices outside your own network I. e. from t'internet, you'll need to punch some holes back through the firewall... and if you can get through them, so can the bad guys. Best not let IOT things control things you care about.</blockquote>

    The recent big internet outage was caused by a bunch of hijacked webcams and presumably most of them were behind routers.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2016
     
    Posted By: CWattersThe recent big internet outage was caused by a bunch of hijacked webcams and presumably most of them were behind routers.

    Is that just speculation? I'd rather assumed the opposite since there was no mention of going through a NATted router in the reports I read, but I haven't seen anything specific.
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2016
     
    https://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/mirai-what-you-need-know-about-botnet-behind-recent-major-ddos-attacks

    “Webcams were the primary devices exploited in the Dyn attack, while CCTV cameras are believed to have been the IoT device primarily utilized in the attack on OVH. These devices weren’t protected by a firewall or router using NAT, which allowed them to be easily compromised. Additionally many IoT devices take advantage of a feature known as Universal Plug and Play (UPnP) which opens a port on the router to allow them to be accessible from the internet.”
    • CommentAuthortorrent99
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2016
     
    IOT devices are basically small computers. If you can compromise and hijack the IOT, it is potentially possible to use it as a slave within a "bot net". Hence IOT devices like self contained webcams can be used by the bad guys to either attack other people, or as a hop point to attack other devices on your network e.g. you main computer.

    The bit about NATing is a red herring really. Like I said 99% of home routers use NAT to "hide" your computers private IP address behind a public one. To expose you IOT device on the internet, you have to change the configuration of your home router to "expose" the IOT device (this can often be done automagically via the UPnP protocol).

    So as to "best practice", you put the IOT devices on a private network NOT connected to the internet. If you want to use the internet connectivity, you need to provide a secure means to access that private network (the VPN I mentioned earlier). This is non-trivial and WELL beyond your average punter. (would be like asking your average labourer to run a full WUFI simulation!)
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2016
     
    Posted By: torrent99The bit about NATing is a red herring really. Like I said 99% of home routers use NAT to "hide" your computers private IP address behind a public one. To expose you IOT device on the internet, you have to change the configuration of your home router to "expose" the IOT device (this can often be done automagically via the UPnP protocol).

    The NAT is exactly the point as far as I am concerned. I do NOT want to access anything from outside the local network, I want to PREVENT that.

    PS thanks for the confirmation, Ed.
    • CommentAuthortorrent99
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2016
     
    OK simples. Don't open the firewall, and disable UPNP. You should then by default be "secure" for 99% of home internet connections.

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