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General: Poor mans/DIY EWI

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      CommentAuthorheng
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2016
     
    I've seen this touched on on various threads, but not the precise question (so apologies if I've missed it).

    We're hitting our budget limits and don't think we can afford the EWI. This is frustrating because it obviously has knock on consequences for window positioning which has an impact on wanting to defer the EWI into the future.

    My question therefore is this: What routes are there to reduce the cost of EWI? Can any or all of it realistically be done DIY?
  2.  
    Posted By: hengdon't think we can afford the EWI
    If I had a pound for every time someone said this I could afford my own DIY!!!

    I reckon I might be able to do a DIY version of Bauwfix's sort of stuff using lecca and my local 'intonaco' but even then the ROI will be marginal to zero, esp as I couldn't do the whole house (for reasons I won't hijack this thread with). It seems the limitations on DIYing EWI (using EPS) are all to do with one's 'wet' skills and just being able to purchase a 'system' or even decent accessories. For sure though, if you don't need a warranty it is possible, as others will no doubt shortly explain (or link to where it has been explained before).
  3.  
    I've done two DIY installs now, the first was with batons the second with foam adhesive.

    I would favour the foam adhesive for a number of reasons.

    Buy seconds boards, buy foam on ebay etc, composite boards save time and messing round. Use tapered boards and save on plastering....
  4.  
    VE, wasn't yours IWI, not EWI? (I think it must have been, as you refer to composite boards).
  5.  
    Yes, heng, it can be done DIY. You need to find someone who will supply you with all elements of the 'system', but that should not be difficult. Close, almost obsessive attention to detail is the most important bit, probably. If you have strong shoulders and can get a flat finish on thin-coat render (practice on the adhesive coat! That wants to be a toothed coat, but if you trowel it flat first, literally as practice for the finish coat, you can tooth it after your practice run.) you should be OK. The finish coats tend to be like 'fat paint' - gritty things that you simply rub in in a circular fashion down to the grit size. (If that description is abundantly unclear I apologise!).

    Does your roof 'oversail'? The nastiest bits of EWI can be the trims they use (and the quality of installation thereof) when the roof does not oversail.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2016
     
    Posted By: GotanewlifeFor sure though, if you don't need a warranty


    Just see what your mortgage company says when they find out.... Or when you come to sell the house....
    •  
      CommentAuthorheng
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2016
     
    Posted By: ringi
    Posted By: GotanewlifeFor sure though, if you don't need a warranty


    Just see what your mortgage company says when they find out.... Or when you come to sell the house....

    Is this likely to be an issue? It would be done competently or not at all.
    •  
      CommentAuthorheng
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2016
     
    Posted By: Nick ParsonsYes, heng, it can be done DIY. You need to find someone who will supply you with all elements of the 'system', but that should not be difficult. Close, almost obsessive attention to detail is the most important bit, probably. If you have strong shoulders and can get a flat finish on thin-coat render (practice on the adhesive coat! That wants to be a toothed coat, but if you trowel it flat first, literally as practice for the finish coat, you can tooth it after your practice run.) you should be OK. The finish coats tend to be like 'fat paint' - gritty things that you simply rub in in a circular fashion down to the grit size. (If that description is abundantly unclear I apologise!).

    Does your roof 'oversail'? The nastiest bits of EWI can be the trims they use (and the quality of installation thereof) when the roof does not oversail.

    Fascinating. It doesn't oversail in the gables. It does a bit at the front and back, but not at a flat roof. I've seen the plastic trims on top of the EWI on various houses roundabouts. I assume this is the usual solution?
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2016
     
    Posted By: heng
    Posted By: ringi
    Posted By: GotanewlifeFor sure though, if you don't need a warranty


    Just see what your mortgage company says when they find out.... Or when you come to sell the house....

    Is this likely to be an issue? It would be done competently or not at all.


    You are normally required to get approval to do any work that needs building control, most (ALL) of the EWI systems have a certificate that require they are installed by approved people. BC require you to do any work according to the certificate of the insulation product you are using....
  10.  
    My mistake I thought I read EWI was too expensive so he intended to do IWI. Lack of sleep....
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2016
     
    Posted By: ringiYou are normally required to get approval to do any work that needs building control, most (ALL) of the EWI systems have a certificate that require they are installed by approved people. BC require you to do any work according to the certificate of the insulation product you are using....

    Ouch! I wonder if it is possible to find a private building inspector that will let you DIY. Or find a mortgage provider ditto (the Ecology?). Or, stretching the imagination to breaking point, an approved installer that will supervise a DIY? :cool:
  12.  
    ''You are normally required to get approval to do any work that needs building control, most (ALL) of the EWI systems have a certificate that require they are installed by approved people. BC require you to do any work according to the certificate of the insulation product you are using....''

    That is not a problem per se. I have had a couple of companies which would have been happy to give me their 1-2-day training for nothing or for a nominal fee. You would then be as 'approved' as most contractors. You might have to re-name yourself 'heng contracting' for a few days, but I bet many people have done that to get merchants' discounts.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2016
     
    It is just not a easy as doing IWI a room at a time.....
  14.  
    Posted By: ringiIt is just not a easy as doing IWI a room at a time.....
    Yes, esp if you work. Booking time off when the weather is good for example.
  15.  
    perfectly possible to DIY. As said above attention to detail is important e.g. no gaps between the slabs of EPS. As a DIYer you will probably pay more attention to detail than any of the 'pros' working on a price /m2.

    A couple of pointers
    Don't dot & dab the adhesive on to the back of the EPS but either used a toothed float (slow) or put a solid line of adhesive top and bottom of each board and a couple of splodges in the middle and ensure the lines meet up with the adjacent boards. A lot of pros use dot & dab ('cos it's quick) but this can/will leave a gap behind the EPS which can allow air flow by convection behind the EPS, top to bottom nullifying the EWI.

    It can be done with a ladder but a tower is better.

    Beg, borrow, buy or hire a stick mixer. Your all purpose hand drill is not up to the task of mixing the adhesive.

    The top adhesive coat with the mesh in it is quite easy to do, adhesive first with a toothed float, then the mesh on then float over with a flat float. A couple of m2 and you will get the hang of it. Working top to bottom is fine.

    The thin coat render is best done all in one go. i.e. don't let one bit dry before doing the adjacent bit otherwise you won't get even colouration. This is the bit I would get a pro to do if I had any doubts about my ability.

    With the exception of the thin coat render (top coat) it is a fairly forgiving job and can be done in stages as weather and time allow.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2016
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryDon't dot & dab the adhesive on to the back of the EPS but either used a toothed float (slow) or put a solid line of adhesive top and bottom of each board and a couple of splodges in the middle and ensure the lines meet up with the adjacent boards.


    Can spray fixing foam be used?
  17.  
    Posted By: ringi
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryDon't dot & dab the adhesive on to the back of the EPS but either used a toothed float (slow) or put a solid line of adhesive top and bottom of each board and a couple of splodges in the middle and ensure the lines meet up with the adjacent boards.


    Can spray fixing foam be used?

    I've no experience of that - so don't know
    • CommentAuthorEd Davies
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2016
     
    It's worth mentioning that EPS slabs with render isn't the only EWI option. Others would include a Larsen truss filled with EPS beads with either a ventilation gap and some sort of cladding or maybe cement boards or something with render. Maybe just my prejudices but that sort of thing seems more reliably DIYable to me.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2016 edited
     
    You can do cladding over EPS slabs can't you? Battening somehow?

    See my previous posts on framed systems :D
    •  
      CommentAuthorheng
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2016
     
    Posted By: Nick Parsons I have had a couple of companies which would have been happy to give me their 1-2-day training for nothing or for a nominal fee. You would then be as 'approved' as most contractors. You might have to re-name yourself 'heng contracting' for a few days, but I bet many people have done that to get merchants' discounts.

    Are you able to suggest a company?
    •  
      CommentAuthorheng
    • CommentTimeDec 13th 2016 edited
     
    Doesn't seem too hard:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-klJzJnptI&feature=youtu.be

    The company offer a 1-day training course.
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2016 edited
     
    Posted By: ringi
    Can spray fixing foam be used?


    Sto have a foam fix option. Ilbruck do a gun foam which is marketed for EPS EWI foam fix. Planning to do that myself, just getting a firm in to apply Weber render.
    • CommentAuthorMarkyP
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2016
     
    Posted By: heng
    I have had a couple of companies which would have been happy to give me their 1-2-day training for nothing or for a nominal fee. You would then be as 'approved' as most contractors. You might have to re-name yourself 'heng contracting' for a few days, but I bet many people have done that to get merchants' discounts.

    Are you able to suggest a company?


    have a look at the insulated render and cladding asscoiation. they have a decent technical guide which will give you all you need to know about how to do EWI. If you do an internet search you will readily find a few of the market leaders in the EWI systems field, they have guides which explain their build up and often have installation guides. It's not rocket science and is basically an insulating layer either mechanically or glue (or both) fixed, a base coat with a reinforcing mesh embedded and a finish coat. You shouldnt have much trouble sourcing the materials. You can buy many of the renders from builders merchants and there are loads of suppliers online of the various beads and mesh. And the insulation is typically either fibre board, EPS or mineral wool, again you shouldnt have an issue finding a supplier. The only thing I would do (and will do as I am doing EWI DIY) is have a chat with your BCO first. I think you'd be unlucky to find a BCO who insisted on a fully certified system by an approved installer. If you talk over what you plan and do so knowledgably then I cant see why you shouldnt be able to do it. You can also consider DIY fixing the insulation and then finding a plasterer/renderer to do the finish. I can plaster myself so will probably do it if I have the time but I know a plasterer who will happily come on a day rater and render my DIY fixed EWI. doing this yourself will save you thousands, get a quote from a system installer, that might help you decide which way to go.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2016
     
    What's the expensive part, the fixing of blocks or the rendering?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2016
     
    the profit, insulation is cheaper than rendering, e/o for thicker insulation is practically insignificant. scaffold takes a reasonable proportion
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2016
     
    "The profit" :bigsmile:
  27.  
    They said 'art thou the profit?' and he answered no.

    (Coat, hat and everything already in hand)
  28.  
    Posted By: gravelldWhat's the expensive part, the fixing of blocks or the rendering?

    A builder I know divides the EWI labour pricing into 3 equal parts, fixing the EPS slabs, render coat with mesh and thin coat colour render.
    • CommentAuthorringi
    • CommentTimeDec 14th 2016 edited
     
    Posted By: gravelld"The profit"


    This has to cover the sales man costs and averts and the cost of getting approval for greendeal...
    •  
      CommentAuthorheng
    • CommentTimeDec 15th 2016 edited
     
    Posted By: MarkyPhave a look at the insulated render and cladding asscoiation.

    Ha, that's fantastic. Really useful information:
    https://www.inca-ltd.org.uk/knowledge-hub/guidance/

    thanks!

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