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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

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    • CommentAuthorjulia
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2007
     
    Hello all, I'm hoping you may be able to point me in the right direction for finding out about / implementing solar paneling at home. (I'm not an architect, so laymen's language appreciated!) The building where I live houses 90-or-so flats (live/work) and has a large flat blank outer wall just begging for solar panels to be fitted. We are situated directly across the River Lea from the Olympics site, on Fish Island in Bow, E3, London. The architects won awards for the balconies(!) but in my mind seriously missed a trick on making this building ecologically viable.
    I believe it would be a serious boon for all the residents as, apart from the obvious benefits to the ecology, solar power would contribute enormously towards our enormous electricity costs and therefore greatly reduce our collective carbon footprint...
    Any information offered would be greatly appreciated – I wanted to find out as much as possible about this, with all costs of supplies, fitting, percentages of electricity savings, etc, to take the whole idea to the residents & freeholders for a vote.
    Yours truly, Julia.
    p.s. I'm not sure about the idea/effect of wind turbines on the roof but any info you may have on this would help too!
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2007
     
    How many of the large blank outer walls face southeast, south or southwest?
    • CommentAuthorjulia
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2007
     
    Hi, I think it faces East / NorthEast...
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2007
     
    At first sight, not much good for solar then. Panels need to face within that southern quadrant, so they'd have to stick out from the wall on brackets, so they can be turned to face southish. They should also tilt upward, between 25 and 65 degrees from vertical. Unless you had very large low cost panels flat against your northeast wall, that would only be expected work at low efficacy on diffuse, not direct radiation. That's what panels do on an overcast UK day anyway, regardless of ideal orientation. Why not put the panels on the roof?
    • CommentAuthorjulia
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2007
     
    That's really helpful, thank you. The roof could work; are there any basic criteria for what the panels need to be secured to there?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2007
     
    I'd say wait till photovoltaic panels get cheap/fuels get expensive. PV will do everything that a wet panel will do, and much more. Not everone will agree with this!
    • CommentAuthorGuest
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007
     
    (this is posted by majik, must have forgotten my password)

    fostertom,
    And when exactly do you think that might be (PV panels getting cheap)? And how MUCH cheaper, anyway? I'm blown away at the cost at the moment of installing solar for powering an 'average'-sized house- I think US$25-30K is rough cost-guide in USA currently (have prices come down at ALL??). Of course, for multi-million dollar homes that's really an insignificant sum, but for most of us that's just still too high to even consider just yet, even with power-cost savings factored in. Problem is, NOW is when I need a new heating system, and I'm willing to pay a LOT more than most just to have a more eco-friendly/low- or no-carbon emissions set up. I could spend about US$6-10K here in New Zealand to install a ducted heat pump system (not ground source though, not available here yet) - problem is, that will cost me more to run than my present set-up (which is basically space heaters at moment), so I could justify spending a bit more on a solar system that would REDUCE my power bill. But still just can't get up to that $25K mark, especially as houses here just aren't well built enough to justify such expenses (if that makes sense?). Anyway, if I pay out $6-10K now, I'm sure not going to be able to afford or justify, say, $20K a few years from now to 'upgrade' to solar... or am I?? My head just spins painfully all the time now from trying to figure out what to DO...

    majik
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007 edited
     
    S'funny, PVs attract such empassioned scepticism, when it's suggested they may get cheaper by quantum leaps and/or that other fuel prices may rocket to make PV electricity look cheap. My perception is that all hi-tec technologies start prohibitively expensive, eventually entering exponential price-fall if production ramps up. Not so pronounced for mech-eng products like wet panels, but very much so for electronics. And PVs are essentially electronic components, especially the latest chassis-less ones. And especially when potentially limitless demand creates ever more sophisticated, low-cost, high-volume manufacturing and massive R&D results in improving performance from exponentially-diminishing quantities of the hi-tec, possibly rare active materials. And there's other ways energy-density is improving e.g. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.07/solar.html. So it's bound to come and will make wet panels and all their plumbing and mechanical kit look really antiquated. I can't tell when, though - what's best guess?

    The matching technology, that's still rudimentary, is no-moving-parts electricity generation from temperature differentials by thermocouple. Ideal, maybe one day, for recovering waste heat from air- and water-flows, but almost-invisible efficacy so far.

    One of the biggest advantages of electricity-borne energy is that its output can be at any temperature you like. Whereas the output temperature of air- or water-borne energy-transmission systems (or any other relying on the movement of heated material) is limited to something less than the input temperature, unless 'pumped up' by a heat pump.

    Thus on a not-so-sunny day, flow temp from a wet panel is only medium and can only heat the storage tank up to a less-than-medium temperature, however long you wait, regardless of any surplus collection potential that the tank becomes incapable of absorbing. Whereas an immersion heater powered from a PV source can be configured to run any desired temperature, e.g. well above 100oC, so the stored water can eventually reach say 95oC, as fast as the PV can collect energy, of which it readily absorb all.
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007
     
    Posted By: fostertomOne of the biggest advantages of electricity-borne energy is that its output can be at any temperature you like. Whereas the output temperature of air- or water-borne energy-transmission systems (or any other relying on the movement of heated material) is limited to something less than the input temperature, unless 'pumped up' by a heat pump.


    I am sorry but that is simply not correct. The energy available via solar thermal is far greater due to its significantly higher collection efficiency than pv at present. Its has nothing to do with electricity being the medium for transferring it. Solar thermal panels are between 40 and 80% efficient depending on temperature differences whereas pv is only 15% efficient.

    Also there are solar evacuated tubes that will work on a vertical wall. Do not use the heat tube types. You would mount them horizontally and then rotate each tube to the correct angle of incidence of the sun. This would ideally be on a south facing facade.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007
     
    Nigel, what you say about collection efficiency and the resultant energy presently available, I believe is right - but that doesn't contradict what I said. I'm talking about the temperature at which whatever energy is collected can be outputted, regardless of whether that energy is a lot or a little after collection efficiency has had its effect,.
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007
     
    Posted By: fostertomNigel, what you say about collection efficiency and the resultant energy presently available, I believe is right - but that doesn't contradict what I said. I'm talking about the temperature at which whatever energy is collected can be outputted, regardless of whether that energy is a lot or a little after collection efficiency has had its effect,.


    And why is the output temperature relevant?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007 edited
     
    Posted By: nigelAnd why is the output temperature relevant?


    Posted By: fostertomE.g. on a not-so-sunny day, glycol flow temp from a wet panel is only medium (say 60oC) and can only heat the storage tank up to a less-than-medium temperature (say 55oC), however long you wait, regardless of any surplus collection potential that the tank becomes incapable of absorbing (incapable because delta-t between the stored water temp and the glycol temp drops to only a few degrees (60-55=5oC), as stored water temp creeps up to almost-glycol temp - rate of heat transfer is proportional to delta-t so diminishes to almost nothing). Whereas an immersion heater powered from a PV source can be configured to run any desired temperature (say 150oC), so the stored water can eventually reach say 95oC, as fast as the PV can collect energy, of which it readily absorb all (readily because delta-t between the stored water and the immersion heater remains high (150-95=55oC), even when the stored water approaches its max temp).
    PS I've edited my quote for clarity.
    •  
      CommentAuthornigel
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007
     
    why do you need water above 60oC ?

    Why would want to collect electricity at 15% efficiency and then convert it into heat when you can do it far more cheaply and efficiently with solar thermal at 40 to 80% efficiency.
    You would also need 3 to 4 times the surface area to collect them same amount of energy. We wont even consider the cost.

    And please dont tell me that there is suddenly going to be a seachange in pv efficiency because thus far there has'nt been one and there may never be one.

    Has anyone ever heard of a pv hot water system?
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007
     
    Posted By: nigelwhy do you need water above 60oC ?....ever heard of a pv hot water system?
    Agreed wet panels are currently ideal for domestic hw, inexpensive, mature, good payback. Collection efficiency is OK because, not requiring very hot stored water, delta t is adequate, creating adequate rate of heat transfer. For just that, for now, look no further (and swimming pools - even higher efficiency because larger delta t)
    For contribution to space heating, wet panels are marginal, lots of machinery, expensive tanks, which should really be special stratifying ones to get better/hotter storage. Ideally, the most sophisticated/expensive panels to get hotter glycol flow temp. Panels' efficiency decreases ever more sharply, to PV levels or worse, as you try to get hotter stored water, because delta t decreases. With PV, no such problems, efficiency (such as it is) is maintained, great simplicity, easy accurate control; except current prohibitive price of the panels themselves.
    For really hot, therefore dense storage of heat for longer periods, forget wet panels; PVs are ideal for it, same comments as previous. For my pet idea of interseasonal storage deep underground, despite PaulinMontreal's constructive criticism of the idea, again PVs seem to me to leave any wet system standing.

    Posted By: nigeldont tell me that there is suddenly going to be a seachange in pv efficiency
    Efficiency's creeping up all the time, 2 generations of new technologies in the pipeline, foolish to say there won't be more, plus things like http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/13.07/solar.html increase overall system efficience, or at least energy density. I also said why cost will fall exponentially, 6 posts back. And that other fuel prices will rise sharply, making PV look cheap (along with other renewables).

    Above all, PV looks to me like the coming key to inter-seasonal storage, even if collection efficiency still by then neccesitates large areas of PV, providing it gets cheap enough. Daft to ignore that possibility.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2007
     
    The photovoltaic efficiency aspect of this topic is continued here http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=156&page=1#Item_1
    • CommentAuthorSolar bore
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2007
     
    Has anyone ever heard of a pv hot water system?

    Yes Solar Century have developed one its called C21 I think.

    The water cools the PV side making it run at its most significant
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 30th 2007
     
    C21 is Solar Century's family of solar-collecting roof tiles - both PV and wet. Half the C21 versions produce hot water but not photovoltaically. I can't see anything on www.solarcentury.co.uk about specifically PV water heating?
    • CommentAuthorJulian
    • CommentTimeApr 4th 2007
     
    Julia, most photovoltaic and solar thermal systems are available for mounting either on a pitched roof or on racks on a flat roof - what does your building have? Photo voltaic panels generate electricity directly. As Nigel and Tom point out they are not very efficient and they are expensive. But they will generate electricity whenever there is daylight. Any surplus energy you don't use can be be 'sold' back into the national grid. Solar thermal systems are generally either available as flat panel (imagine a radiator painted black) or vacuum tube (like the vacuum unit in a thermos so not much affected by the surrounding air temperature). Generally anti freeze is pumped through the units where it becomes heated and that heat is then transferred into your hot water cylinder. In both cases it is usually going to involve a new hot water cylinder plus the controls and plumbing to connect to existing. Flat panel collectors are generally less effecient than vacuum tube systems but they are also quite a bit cheaper. Tube systems are quicker to start working and will generally produce more hot water through the winter when the sun is lower because of their shape and the effect of the vacuum.

    Low Carbon Buildings Programme can give grants to help with the cost of PV but at the moment I think those for solar thermal have been temporarily suspended. There are a small number of British companies actually making solar panels in the UK - www.aesolar.co.uk , www.filsol.co.uk . The better tube systems seem to be European made - Schott and Wiessmann being two examples - where the tube is made from a single piece of glass so there is no seal to fail. My feeling is to avoid the cheaper end of the (imported) tube market as these products may be prone to fail more easily.

    Good luck with your project - is your building ACME by any chance? I used to have an ACME studio in Arrow Rd.
    Julian
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