Green Building Forum - "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" Fri, 15 May 2026 04:33:18 +0100 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/ Lussumo Vanilla 1.0.3 "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253356#Comment_253356 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253356#Comment_253356 Thu, 26 Jan 2017 16:01:58 +0000 fostertom Posted By: ringiA small amount of pollution is removed from the air by lots of nature systems, so provided we add pollution at a lower rate then it gets removed, we do not create too much damageExcept that you're using up natural reprocessing capacity that's sorely needed elsewhere.]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253358#Comment_253358 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253358#Comment_253358 Thu, 26 Jan 2017 16:13:00 +0000 orangemannot
Surely I can burn some properly dried firewood, cut within a 1/4 mile of our house.

On a holistic balance.

Sheaughs only cleaned on a 20 year rotation and left well "overdeep" to harbour wildlife in the intervening 19 years.

Am a proper hippy Man!

P.S.
Quite seriously I have never seen any smoke or vapours from our 11m high, well exposed flue, it is always perfectly clear, you really really cannot tell whether our wood stove is lit or not.

P.P.S.
I also claim to fatten free range Buzzards.

cheers
M]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253359#Comment_253359 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253359#Comment_253359 Thu, 26 Jan 2017 16:19:12 +0000 MarkyP "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253361#Comment_253361 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253361#Comment_253361 Thu, 26 Jan 2017 16:27:59 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: orangemannotP.P.S.
I also claim to fatten free range Buzzards.
Me too - and a few eagles, which got fattened on one of my (once upon a time) free range chickens :sad::shocked:]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253363#Comment_253363 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253363#Comment_253363 Thu, 26 Jan 2017 16:36:21 +0000 Peter_in_Hungary Posted By: fostertom
Is it? I know you can often smell it (a sign of incorrect adjustment, like typical diesel vehicles) but at best natural gas produces near enough just pure CO2 and H20 - that's it's claim to fame.


I wouldn't want to be in the same room as a gas boiler with a open flue any more than a wood stove with an open flue. At least you can smell the smoke! Locally a family had new windows installed and inside 3 weeks there were 2 dead and 2 in hospital - CO poisoning. The gas regs should have prevented this but the new windows were fitted without reference to the gas regs. as the window fitters have no duty to check this!]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253367#Comment_253367 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253367#Comment_253367 Thu, 26 Jan 2017 17:09:27 +0000 barney
Emissions from natural gas-fired boilers include nitrogen oxides (NOx), carbon monoxide (CO), and carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), volatile organic compounds (VOCs), trace amounts of sulphur dioxide (SO2), and particulate matter (PM).

Burning other fossil fuels has much more complex chemistry, agreed, but NG isn't as benign as you would suggest - and the combustion products are less visible

Regards

Barney]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253370#Comment_253370 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253370#Comment_253370 Thu, 26 Jan 2017 17:32:08 +0000 Ed Davies Posted By: orangemannotQuite seriously I have never seen any smoke or vapours from our 11m high, well exposed flue, it is always perfectly clear, you really really cannot tell whether our wood stove is lit or not.And, of course, 2.5 µm particles are easy to see from 11 metres, if you put your specs on.]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253371#Comment_253371 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253371#Comment_253371 Thu, 26 Jan 2017 18:34:43 +0000 fostertom Posted By: barneyNG isn't as benign as you would suggestWonder where I got that idea from? Makes a big difference to my attitude.]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253374#Comment_253374 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253374#Comment_253374 Thu, 26 Jan 2017 19:09:56 +0000 ringi Posted By: fostertom
Posted By: barneyNG isn't as benign as you would suggest
Wonder where I got that idea from? Makes a big difference to my attitude.

NG in a modem boiler gives a lot less pollution then anything else being burned at a domestic scale, it also has lower sulphur then coal even when the coal is burned as power station scale.

Older NG boilers can be a real issue, with a few boilers responsible for a considerable amount of the pollution in an area. (Hence a government pollution test on all boilers every few years may be a good option.)

Wood boilers can NEVER be trusted on a domestic scale, as you can't control how well seasoned the wood being burned is, along with paint etc on reclaimed wood.]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253375#Comment_253375 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253375#Comment_253375 Thu, 26 Jan 2017 19:11:34 +0000 ringi Posted By: Ed Davies
Posted By: orangemannotQuite seriously I have never seen any smoke or vapours from our 11m high, well exposed flue, it is always perfectly clear, you really really cannot tell whether our wood stove is lit or not.
And, of course, 2.5 µm particles are easy to see from 11 metres, if you put your specs on.

If the stove/boiler is rated for use in a smoke free area, and is being run hot enough that you can't see any smoke, I would not be too cornered about 2.5 µm particles. Unless of course there are many of them in use in the same area.]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253378#Comment_253378 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253378#Comment_253378 Thu, 26 Jan 2017 21:10:04 +0000 tony "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253381#Comment_253381 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253381#Comment_253381 Thu, 26 Jan 2017 21:45:55 +0000 ringi Posted By: tonyThe most dangerous particulates are the very small ones and the can't be seen by the naked eye

But I think with a wood burner you get most of them at the same time as the larger particulates.]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253382#Comment_253382 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253382#Comment_253382 Thu, 26 Jan 2017 22:23:11 +0000 Ed Davies "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253393#Comment_253393 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253393#Comment_253393 Fri, 27 Jan 2017 09:18:17 +0000 orangemannot
The continued resurgence of interest in steam powered rail travel.

How does one balance the pollution emitted against the pleasure gained?

Ditto for all unnecessary travel, by whatever means.

A balance of pleasure procured vis-a-vis pollution produced.

mth]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253396#Comment_253396 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253396#Comment_253396 Fri, 27 Jan 2017 09:25:32 +0000 fostertom "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253398#Comment_253398 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253398#Comment_253398 Fri, 27 Jan 2017 09:49:04 +0000 SteamyTea ]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253400#Comment_253400 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253400#Comment_253400 Fri, 27 Jan 2017 10:10:36 +0000 Simon Still
(Caveat - No date, no source for data)]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253401#Comment_253401 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253401#Comment_253401 Fri, 27 Jan 2017 10:23:00 +0000 fostertom Posted By: SteamyTeaTom, a Fiat Uno is not a classicEye of beholder. What about a 69 124AC Coupe?]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253402#Comment_253402 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253402#Comment_253402 Fri, 27 Jan 2017 11:11:51 +0000 Simon Still Posted By: orangemannotOops, I knew there was sommat else pertinent to the above debate.....The continued resurgence of interest in steam powered rail travel.
.....
Ditto for all unnecessary travel, by whatever means.


How much steam travel is there actually? In the scale of UK pollution I suspect it's irrelevant.

Define un-necessary travel. Everyone thinks their car journey is essential. 23% of trips under 1 mile are driven in the UK and 70% of car journeys are under 5 miles - a huge number of those could be walked or cycled.]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253403#Comment_253403 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253403#Comment_253403 Fri, 27 Jan 2017 11:40:01 +0000 Ed Davies
Sister: “Our window cleaner's car is H-reg from the first time round.”
Brother-in-law: “Yes, but that's a classic car”
S: “But, it's a Cortina.”
B-i-l: “Yes, a classic.”
Both: *Stares of mutual incomprehension.]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253406#Comment_253406 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253406#Comment_253406 Fri, 27 Jan 2017 12:45:30 +0000 Beau
I see in the US catalytic stoves are common place and would be interesting to know how much cleaner they are. A link and quote "During third-party laboratory testing, the Catalyst achieved 0.2 grams per hour of particulate emissions. This is more than 20 times lower than new, more stringent, EPA emissions regulations and less than half the smoke produced by a single cigarette. These emissions were enough to win the Catalyst the Low Emissions Prize at the 2013 Wood Stove Design Challenge and the 2014 Grand Prize, besting its prior performance." http://mffire.com/catalyst/ . Obviously this is advertising blurb so probably take with a pinch of salt.

As an aside was at a farm this morning that was storing piles of chipped wood waste. Not nice clean fresh timber this was chipboard with melamine and god knows what in it. Asked the guys where it was destined for and was told it got shipped to Sweden to be burnt :shocked:

I am not going to defend large scale biomass but feel small scale biomass in rural areas may have it's place and will undoubtedly continue for a long time. We aim to supply good dry wood and try to educate our customers how to burn it efficiently. It does have have a short C02 cycle and it is easy to store without loses in fact during the drying it's increasing potential output :bigsmile:]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253417#Comment_253417 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253417#Comment_253417 Fri, 27 Jan 2017 18:48:54 +0000 ringi Posted By: BeauAs an aside was at a farm this morning that was storing piles of chipped wood waste. Not nice clean fresh timber this was chipboard with melamine and god knows what in it. Asked the guys where it was destined for and was told it got shipped to Sweden to be burnt

Provided it is burned in a licensed boiler, the emissions will be tested often. The power stations that are licence to burn post consumer waist timber (including chip board etc) have a gas burner heating up in the flue with additional air being pumped in, so that all the smoke is burned. Often there are also filters on the flue.

Very different from someone burning chipboard with melamine on an open fire……

I rather that such waist is burned on a controlled way then put in landfill......]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253420#Comment_253420 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253420#Comment_253420 Fri, 27 Jan 2017 19:13:29 +0000 Beau Posted By: ringi
Posted By: BeauAs an aside was at a farm this morning that was storing piles of chipped wood waste. Not nice clean fresh timber this was chipboard with melamine and god knows what in it. Asked the guys where it was destined for and was told it got shipped to Sweden to be burnt


Provided it is burned in a licensed boiler, the emissions will be tested often. The power stations that are licence to burn post consumer waist timber (including chip board etc) have a gas burner heating up in the flue with additional air being pumped in, so that all the smoke is burned. Often there are also filters on the flue.

Very different from someone burning chipboard with melamine on an open fire……

I rather that such waist is burned on a controlled way then put in landfill......

Agreed but shipped from Devon to Sweden!]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253423#Comment_253423 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253423#Comment_253423 Fri, 27 Jan 2017 21:58:16 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: BeauAgreed but shipped from Devon to Sewden!They may have had to take the ship back empty. All depends how it was scheduled.

Slightly off topic, but when I was pounding the motorway network for a living, I often passed trucks with empty pallets on them. Quite often I would see trucks going in the opposite direction with empty pallets on then as well.
Go figure (as they say).]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253424#Comment_253424 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253424#Comment_253424 Sat, 28 Jan 2017 00:12:03 +0000 ringi "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253427#Comment_253427 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253427#Comment_253427 Sat, 28 Jan 2017 08:24:42 +0000 Beau Posted By: SteamyTea
Posted By: BeauAgreed but shipped from Devon to Sewden!
They may have had to take the ship back empty. All depends how it was scheduled.

Slightly off topic, but when I was pounding the motorway network for a living, I often passed trucks with empty pallets on them. Quite often I would see trucks going in the opposite direction with empty pallets on then as well.
Go figure (as they say).

Just trying to get my head around this.

Please check my numbers as I am not the sharpest tool in the box :bigsmile:

So a walking floor lorry can hold 100m3 of wood chip. Dry chip is around 250kg per m3 so 25 tonnes of chip per lorry. A bit of googling and it appears a 40 tonne lorry averages 8-9 mpg. 293 miles from here to Sweden so 161 gallons of diesel to ship chip that should produce around 100000 kWh of heat. Not ideal but not as awfully as it first sounded to me.]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253428#Comment_253428 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253428#Comment_253428 Sat, 28 Jan 2017 08:31:27 +0000 SteamyTea Posted By: Beau293 miles from here to SwedenI am further than that from Watford, are are you talking about the shortest route from the UK to Sweden (if there was a road).
Bit of info about fuel use by transport type here, no idea how accurate it is (just first google hit) and the units are US.
http://business.tenntom.org/why-use-the-waterway/shipping-comparisons/

A bit more googling and it seems that bunker fuel (as used in ships) has 40 MJ/kg, (https://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch8en/conc8en/energycontent.html), so that would be 11kWh/kg or 42 kWh/US gallon.

If a ship does the equivalent of 514 MPG/Ton of cargo, then to move 25 tonnes (24.6 ton), that will be 21 MPG/gallon equivalent.
21 US gallons has an energy content of 882 kWh.
25 tonnes of wood chip will have a usable energy content of around 112,500 kWh.
So less than 1% is lost to transport.

(not sure if that is right, but others can check)]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253431#Comment_253431 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253431#Comment_253431 Sat, 28 Jan 2017 10:39:23 +0000 Beau "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253433#Comment_253433 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253433#Comment_253433 Sat, 28 Jan 2017 14:18:04 +0000 SteamyTea That is 33 kWh.
So 25 tonne of woodchip (112,500 kWh) will use 75 gallons, or 825 kWh (there are some rounding errors in there).
Let us call it 1000, kWh to move 100,000 kWh, still 1%.
I think we can discount "the amount of energy needed to ship wood chip half way around the world" as a bit of a red herring.
It would use 16% to do that or about double what total electricity losses are in the UK (most looses are in the last few miles and not from those large pylons, I seem to remember that they accounted for under 3% losses).]]> "Pollution in London from wood burning on the rise" https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253440#Comment_253440 https://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=14864&Focus=253440#Comment_253440 Sat, 28 Jan 2017 19:26:55 +0000 ringi
If we just put it in the ground it will give of lot of methane gas as it rots down, methane is a worse greenhouse gas then CO2.]]>