Green Building Forum - Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Guest — Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:05:40 +0000

I may have missed a few posts, but still not sure (apart from the sheer area, which will look daunting) why you feel you cannot do strawbale. You CAN. You have already said you've got lots of people you could draw in, and you could maybe get some via here. Lots of people do strawbale courses. Keep thinking about D'ing It Y. Contact me via www.syec.co.uk if I can help.

Nick

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Nick Parsons — Sat, 17 Feb 2007 19:23:59 +0000

Sorry, 'Guest' was me. Nick

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:35:57 +0000

Thanks Nick

The strawbale is still an option - but amazon nails haven't got back to be yet

I'm looking for other companies as I do feel I need a bit of "proffessional" help (see I can't even spell)

My big problem atm is getting an drawings done tho' I got an eamil from an architect that said
"I am impressed by the work that you have done with your business plan and costings....... ........then the project seems like it is feasible."

Which gave me some hope - however he doesn't want the job

But I might try the "public forum at www.aees.co.uk" that bob suggested

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:46:43 +0000

Nick - Lovely site btw

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Sat, 17 Feb 2007 20:58:47 +0000

Good stuff

I have a separate loan of Â£15K to do the big bits of play equipment, changing tables, Office & electrical equipment & to equip the kitchen

Bad Stuff

I am assuming that I will need a sealed kitchen floor, stainless steel worksurfaces & cupboard doors (will the whole cupboard have to be S/S?)

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:30:39 +0000

I spoke to a diversification consultant today and have got lots of new info all about
Solar Panels
Bio-fuels
Waste disposal
An architect
A builder
A grant person who will know if there are any grants around for this (unlikely)
& a company who will come & audit my systems, provide me with energy saving ideas & only charge me for their service after I have saved the money that their suggestions will save (neat idea that)

But apparently I shouldn't combine solar with wood/straw I should combine either with oil or LPG (not sure I agree with that tho')

My Architect from last week hasn't been in touch (yet - I should give him more time)
& neither have the straw bale building company I have approached

So we aren't really much further on atm.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

skier-hughes — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:12:02 +0000

Who was your diversification consultant, and who is the company he put you on to?

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:26:20 +0000

www.earthlyideas.co.uk - chaps name is Jason

The company is called 4Biz - I need to look them up yet - they may not be suitable

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 08:28:06 +0000

Hmm 4Biz seems to be a franchise.....not very hopeful then

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

skier-hughes — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:34:39 +0000

Was Jason good?
What did he do?
Come and explain your options for your particular case?
Is he tied to any company or independant?

Graham

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:47:38 +0000

He has given me some names of help/advise & possibly funding - so that has helped

He told be about some rules/legislation I didn't know about as that's useful (If not good)

He had a few "odd" opinions whcih I can ignor (like office ceilings???? not really a 'eco' nursery option imo)

He did seem to be biased about the heating option eg I assumed HW in winter = boiler & HW in summer = Solar but I can only have either boiler or solar which I didn't agree with

He 'seems' independant....& he is also a journalist....so we wil see

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

skier-hughes — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:49:50 +0000

Thanks,

Did he charge?
How much?

Graham

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:55:22 +0000

Â£60.........for 2 hours

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

skier-hughes — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:11:54 +0000

Not bad.

I'll research him, thanks a bunch.

Graham

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:27:49 +0000

no problem - hope he can help

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:37:23 +0000

Katymac, back to the begining - I wondered:
Why asbestos removal? as far as I know corrugated asb cem roofing's non hazardous
Truss removal - existing ones really no good?
200m2 - long and thin, or nearer square? What span?
Single blockwork - is it a framed barn, or an overgrown garage? How high? Gable ends? How steep?

How about dirt cheap pime trunks as low-pitch monopitch roof beams, instead of trusses? Modern handsome, with overhangs, look good inside. Minimises external surface, insulation and Onduline quantities.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:46:57 +0000

a) I would rather encapsulate the asbestos - but Building Inspector & Environmental health chap ganged up on me & said Nooooooooo (because it is a nursery)

b) trusses - No structural engineer will be prepared to say they are OK - they were (apparently) made by a local blacksmith (now dead) and prob didn't have any calculations when they were put up

c) I went & measured it today actually.....10m by 16.6m - so a lot smaller than the farmer 'told' me but hopefully big enpugh

d) about 4 m (ish...I couldn't reach that high) to the eves with gable ends......The doors are 3.6m wide and 3.4 m high & the roof might be 30 degrees but the farmer got the dimensions wrong so that might not be accurate

I don't know what a framed barn is

It used to store grain - but they don't do that any more

There are piers (I think they are called) at about every 3m

Tell me more about this idea for a roof?

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:08:19 +0000

Hi Katymac
What is this asbestos you've got? Agreed nearly all kinds shd be removed, except the very common old asbestos-cement corrugated roofing is I believe harmless because the cement content effectively encapsulates the asbestos, so it cd stay, or wd require no special removal precautions (anyone confirm or deny?)
Your angle-iron trusses sound great - I bet you *could* find a structural engineer who'd approve them without fuss- my favourite one in Somerset would - maybe with a bit of welded strengthening - easy - e.g criss-cross diagonal bracing between them at top level.
10m - that's a big span, so sorry, forget the pine trunks idea. Keep your trusses if you possibly can. They help stabilise your walls, which sound very flimsy for that height. You definitely need a practical, helpful structural engineer, then you've got it made, just roof sheeting and insulation and you're all cosy.
A grain store - that sounds like potential big outward pressures on the walls. Are you sure you haven't got steel columns built into the piers, to which the trusses are fixed? That wd make it a frame shed, and you cd if you wished knock the existing walls out altogether.
An engineer wd also advise whether your existing wall foundations cd be made to support an external skin of straw bales (which are heavy). That wd be ideal, as it's work a volunteer force cd do and have fun with, providing superb insulation and a heavyish interior suitable for slow-response heating by e.g. woodburners. If not, you'll need plastic lightweight insulation and rainshield cladding at much greater cost, retaining the heavyish interior; or else putting the lightweight insulation internally, which implies a rapid-response heating system. I can't see an internal blockwork lining, unless for some structural strengthening scheme.
With straw bales you could in places not just clad the blockwork, but build little funny-shaped extensions like a half-igloo, or bay-window-like things. Have you read Places of the Soul by Christopher Day (Thorsons)? You should.
Sounds very promising, unless the trusses really are u/s. If so, I'm afraid that all you've got is a building site, because those flimsy walls and probably rough and ready floor are almost more trouble than they're worth, once you start altering bthem.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

nigel — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:46:26 +0000

Asbestos cement is still a hazard and needs to be removed by an authorised contractor. Allbeit it is lower risk it is still strictly controlled.
I have just had to pay to have floor tiles removed professionally as they contained asbestos. Very low risk but still expensive.

Encapsulating the asbestos is fine but if you have to make lots of holes in it you release dust which is high risk therefore I dont think encapsulating it is an option.

I can also recommend the Christopher Day book and the Nant-y-Cwm nursery is exceptional.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

nigel — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:54:52 +0000

http://www.nant-y-cwm.co.uk/" >Nant-y-Cwm

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:14:31 +0000

So I guess I have several options
1) pull down the barn crush the walls for foundations for my car park and rebuild on the concrete slab
2) pull down the barn crush the walls & floor for foundations for my car park and rebuild
3) ignor the barn build somewhere else on the field not sure if planning would go for that
4) Carry on with possible renovation

Sometimes I want to just give it all up & I could go and number crunch for my dad

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:21:04 +0000

Katymac, you could laughing - find a stuctural engineer who will tell you what you've really got, or not.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:26:37 +0000

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:24:20 +0000

Maybe a pic would prove him obviously right but structural opinions do reflect the personality and experience of the engineer - I'd say get a 2nd opinion! Can you see if you have steel columns inside your blockwork piers?

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:34:09 +0000

The piers (if that is what they are called) are about 50cm wide and 30 cm deep.....how would I know if there were columns?

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:48:40 +0000

Climb up and look at the top of the piers - if the trusses are bolted to up-poking steel, that's probably column tops. If the trusses are bolted down onto the blockwork, or a concrete pad, then probably not. On the piers, are the blocks laid flat (10 or 15cm courses) or on edge (23cm courses)? If the latter, the piers are probably a 10cm-thick shell enclosing steel - they seem big enough.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:53:48 +0000

The blocks are about 15cm thick

From the ground the metal looks like it is between 2 blocks - I'm not going up there

If they are on metal posts...is that good or bad?

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:33:54 +0000

15cm thick - is that 15cm height-wise i.e. blocks laid flat, or 15cm thick widthwise i.e. blocks stood on edge?
If it turns out there are steel columns directly holding up the trusses, then (good or bad?.......hmm, dunno) the whole thing should be stronger, you could knock out more (or all) of the blockwork, generally it should simpllify matters, stability-wise; offer more possibilities.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:40:11 +0000

Soory a block is about 44cm by 20cm by 15cm

44 is long, 20 is high and 15 is width

The piers blocks are in the same direction as the wall blocks

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:57:51 +0000

Sounds like you could have a 15 x 15 cm steel column inside each pier. Does it look like each pier is a hollow shell of blockwork?
Is the plain blockwork between the piers also 15cm width? That wd sound a bit more substantial than if it was 10cm.