Green Building Forum - Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:08:22 +0000

Yes all the block are that size

I really don't know about the piers tho'

IS that a standard block size?

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Wed, 21 Feb 2007 09:19:46 +0000

BTW - there aren't any piers in the corners so would that mean that there isn't a frame

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:51:04 +0000

Katymac, 44 x 21.5 x 15 or 14 wd be standard, a little bit bigger if pre-metric.
The gable end walls would do the job of endmost frames.
You have ... what? 5 bays/4 trusses at 3.5m c/cs? You'd call them trusses if they just sit on the blockwork piers but if the trusses are bolted to steel legs (columns) then you'd call each assembly a portal frame. So it's not that the whole building is a steel frame; you may have say 4 independent portal frames. Each portal could easily fall over sideways and relies on the blockwork walls lengthwise to stop it doing that (the blockwork walls provide lateral stability to the portals). The long walls could easily fall over crosswise, but portals stay portal-shaped all by themselves cos they're rigid at the 'knee' where the trusses join the columns. So the portals provide lateral stability to the walls. It's all very efficient structurally, which is why factory sheds and barns are usually portal framed.
It's possible you may have a rural bastard design, where the trusses are supported on columns but without the stiffening at the knee. Then they can't be called portal frames and they don't do much to stabilise the blockwork walls. That's where additional criss-cross steel stiffeners between the trusses at top level would come in - they'd come in also if there aren't any steel columns. They'd make the entire roof planes rigid, gable end-to-gable end, keeping the trusses in line, hence the tops of the piers, hence the blockwork walls. Confused? You soon won't be - your Dad will be dazzled at your mastery of the jargon!

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:58:35 +0000

blimey

I'll print that off and learn it

Then I CAN impress my dad

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Brian Beney — Fri, 23 Feb 2007 18:15:27 +0000

Have you been in touch with C.A.T. ? Have you thought about Walter Segal type of construction ? Give you an open space you can gradually 'finish' ?

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:32:58 +0000

OK - planning are forbidding knocking down the walls.....it must be renovated

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Tue, 27 Feb 2007 20:43:19 +0000

Well all my funding has arrived

It seems odd to have all this money & nothing to do with it

And quite stressful to owe it & not have spent it

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 00:47:15 +0000

Does this mean you're feeling stuck Katymac? Are you getting a second opinion on whether your existing walls *and* trusses can be retained (and whether you have steel columns)? If so, you're well away.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:20:38 +0000

I spoke to another engineer & he is happy with the trusses - but he worries about suspending a ceiling from them (the centers are wrong??)

Walls are not negociable according to planning - if I knock them down I can't rebuild

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 08:21:25 +0000

What's Walter Segal construction - I see a morning of Google ahead of me

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

nigel — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 09:03:46 +0000

Walter Segal developed a system of building using standard compenents such as plywood boards.
Everything was sized to reduce waste and cutting and was considered a very good method for self builders.
Not sure its going to be of much use in your refurb project though.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:10:29 +0000

>I spoke to another engineer & he is happy with the trusses< Alleluia! That changes everything - doesn't it?
With splendid angle-iron trusses, don't think of suspending a celing under them - paint them bright colours, hang lights and mobiles from them, use them! Sure they can look horrible if unloved, but e.g. I designed a new Surgery where new angle-iron trusses were the dominant feature of the lofty, light-filled waiting area - everyone loves it. The alternative, a dismal homogenising flat ceiling obscuring the spacious loftiness that you have, sounds terrible, institutional, no place to bring kids. With purlins, probably timber, laid over the top of the rafters, you can have all the insulation you want, and whatever ceiling material you want, dappled by uplighters (and/or how about clerestory windows at high level), all by easy conventional construction.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 15:54:00 +0000

OK - Fostertom..........come & design it for me

I guess that won't work with the onduline I was considering

So are we back on a concrete tile roof? - How high should the eaves be? I was thinking about 8ft with a flat ceiling - where do I put the insulation

& will it cost loads to heat?

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 19:26:25 +0000

No, Onduline's probably ideal. Eaves will be wherever the existing trusses dictate. It could look good to create a good overhanging eave, easily done, maybe also overhanging verges (that's the roof edge going up the gable slope). Inside, the wall plaster will simply meet the sloping ceiling, wherever that lies, depending on the detailing of the sloping roof build-up that's laid on top of the existing trusses. Heating costs will simply depend on your insulation standards - no problem with making it as well insulated as you like (or can afford - though e.g. volunteer-built straw bales round the outside of the walls should cost little (subject to foundations for same) and would be hard to beat for insulation)

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 20:12:58 +0000

Sorry I was intending to lower the wall height to 8 ft......so cutting about 1.2m off the walls that way i would reduce the height to heat

How do you insulate the onduline?

Still waiting to hear from amazon nails about the straw bales.......love the idea tho' & I have been promised about 500 (wheat) straw bales - which are apparently the "right stuff"

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 22:10:14 +0000

Oh I see. I'd leave the wall height as it is, 4m, leave the trusses undisturbed (are they on steel columns within the blockwork piers, or not?). An extra 1.2m wall height isn't all that significant as a proportion of total heat-losing surface, especially when straw-bale insulated. Popular to common belief, extra volume (as opposed to extra external surface area) doesn't require extra heat. The full magnificent 4m height plus much more up to the ridge is a fantastic asset you should keep and exploit - future mezzanine floorspace for example, albeit sub-divided by the trusses, but that's OK for adventurous-kiddy spaces - what fun!

Onduline is just the outer corrugated sheet, like corrugated iron (consider it carefully, though - cheap and eco but not fantastically durable). Under that you'll need a designed structural/insulation/vapour/airtight sandwich, just like with any other outer covering.

Amazon Nails have their definitive instruction book online for free but otherwise expect to be paid for advice. Have you asked an Engineer how a skin of straw bales could be supported? They would have to sit on a 40cm thick blockwork/stone/concrete plinth wall up to say 20cm (can't remember the exact recommendation) above ground level, and the whole would have to be built up from a foundation perhaps 1m underground - maybe if you're lucky there's existing foundation/slab concrete already there, or you might have to extend its width. An outside possibility (especially if there's steel columns) would be to cantilever the bales off the blockwork, starting 20cm above ground level - the palaver might be worth it to avoid the massive plinth wall and/or extended foundations.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Thu, 01 Mar 2007 23:28:31 +0000

Don't worry I have offered them money.......& downloaded the booklet

My dad fancied using 'turboblocks' for the foundation but AN weren't keen

I think foundations will be necessary (I don't think there are any) & a big worry is the lack of dpc for the existing wall

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Fri, 02 Mar 2007 10:35:01 +0000

Just because there isn't a DPC doesn't *necessarily* mean you'll get rising damp - especially if you keep ground level well below floor level and make sure it's dry (not waterlogged) ground. You safety, can get an injection DPC, as commonly used on old houses, or you can waterproof-render internally for a couple of ft up the wall.

For several purposes you really do need to discover whether you have steel columns or not - for starters it could just save you from need for base walls, new/widened founds. In fact, if you do have to do base walls/founds, maybe you should scrap the strawbale idea and go for conventional rendered external insulation simply fixed to the walls.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Guest — Mon, 12 Mar 2007 22:33:36 +0000

i don't want to dampen your enthusiasm, but I have seen a couple of agricultural steel framed barns being built. Round here the construction is the "legs" of the frames are bolted onto small 18" cube foundations, the walls are then built on 6" deep strip foundations up to the eave level. The inside has then had hardcore rolled down and flooded with concrete to give them a "smooth" finish. The legs are typically 4" I beams which are hard to hide inside blockwork. One of the barns had steel reinforcing rods sticking out of the footings, so each block had to be lifted up 10' up and over the rods before being bedded on it mortar!
I would think that if you borrowed a metal detector or even a stud detector you might be able to see if there was any metal work buried in the blocks. i would have thought that the "piers" are in lieu of proper steel legs.
Depending on the widths of the windows, I would say any window of less then 30" wide has to be splayed, at least in 24" thick walls. The added complications of an external and internal lintels makes each window very expensive, I would put in half the number you fancy to start of with, add others as funds allow. The little darlings will be so amazed with your murals and pictures they won't be worried about looking out of the windows.
frank

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

floaty sarah — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:07:15 +0100

I havent got the time to read all 6 pages so sorry if the heating has been sorted out cheaply already:

I suggest a Rocket Stove (wood), which can be built by volunteers and is safe with children. Also ceramic stoves are very efficient on wood (and I mean efficient) and safe but my brothers cost Â£2500 for a cottage: heating space, water and under floor heating and they did the work themselves. ROcket stoves use cob as the thermal mass which is used as seating as the flue goes horizontal, through the rooms. I dont have much information on Rocket Stoves but no doubt the net has!

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Guest — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:46:15 +0100

Here you go:
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://transitionculture.org/wp-content/uploads/rocketstove.jpg&imgrefurl=http://transitionculture.org/2006/03/10/top-five-things-to-do-with-oil-barrels-when-theres-no-more-oil-to-fill-them-4-build-a-rocket-stove/&h=209&w=383&sz=18&hl=en&start=5&um=1&tbnid=y0uOKgl6WYoWkM:&tbnh=67&tbnw=123&prev=/images%3Fq%3DRocket%2BStove%2B%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

Can anyone shorten that link?

Roger.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:05:34 +0100

Well Ok Guys - YOU WERE RIGHT......there does that make you feel better?

I have had an estimate of Â£2500 for removing & disposing of the asbestos panels.............so that's Â£4K saved

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:46:42 +0100

Bingo! where shall we go to spend it?

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 13:57:29 +0100

On Maroleum

Or possibly my Electric supply?

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Rod — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 17:55:37 +0100

Katymac

Iam new here and I may have missed something from an earlier post. If so, please accept my apologies. I am not clear, do you actually have formal planning consent for this project or are you at the stage of informal discussions with the planning authority?

Secondly, if you can make use of the existing building in its entirety then that is very likely to be your most economic option but you have got to know whether or not building control will accept it as structurally sound and this means at the very least establishing the depth of the footings. There is a very good chance that , as an agricultural building it was put up without planning permission and the footings will be very shallow. I guess that is a job for a structural engineer (Chartered?) whose written report will carry some weight. Authorities will not take your project seriously until all the formal paperwork is submitted.

Thirdly I don't care (within reason!) how you remove your asbestos but I do recommend that you dispose of it legally.

Again if I have n missed the spirit of this thread please accept my apologies but there does seem to be a lot of money at stake here.

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 18:13:31 +0100

Rod - don't worry I don't mind you questioning me, if it hadn't been for the chaps on here asking questions I wouldn't be as far along as I am.

I am trying to discuss it with planning, however they won't "waste time" with me until the Highways issue is sorted. They have stated that "they have no objection in principle to a nursery being there.......however I need to put in Detailed permission, not outline"

The barn was built in 1958 (I found that out today) and had the permissions necessary at the time

The structural engineer who has looked at it (so far) has said it is solid enough & there is some discussions about taking core samples of the floor to determine depth.

So far 3 of the 4 companies that have quoted for the asbestos removal have assured me that they have the appropriate certification necessary - however the man from Building control has suggested that he would like to visit as the roof comes off (apparently farms round here have a bad rep for dumping it) so I won't be able to (however I wouldn't anyway)

Yes there is a lot of money at stake - more than I can afford

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

fostertom — Wed, 28 Mar 2007 22:16:43 +0100

Posted By: KatymacThe structural engineer who has looked at it (so far) has said it is solid enough

Tell us what he said - and is he a useful type of guy (gal?)?

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Tue, 17 Apr 2007 21:06:33 +0100

OK

Structural engineer (one with insurance) came this morning

He climbed up the ladder & did lots of shaking of his head & tutting at me - so I'm not terribly hopeful

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

Katymac — Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:33:38 +0100

New suggestion (not very green.....)

Put battons on the wall - fill with polystyrene - clad in weatherboard

Umm I'm not quite sure about this?

Lets think laterally I'm Â£140K over budget

nigel — Sun, 22 Apr 2007 22:50:32 +0100

You could fill with perlite - its considered reasonably green.