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    • CommentAuthormike7
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2017 edited
     
    Looking at progress my neighbour's extension, I wondered if you might have any comments on the cavity insulation that I could pass on to the owner - or the builder.
      IMG_2320.1.jpg
  1.  
    Apart from the obvious, I'd quite like to remove a bit to look for snots on the ties. Also is there a row of ties at DPC level? Otherwise what is stopping the batts (and indeed it looks like quilt, not dense batts) dropping onto the moist ground below DPC?
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2017
     
    Job's a good 'un. :bigsmile:

    Seriously, is this unsolicited advice you are passing on?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2017
     
    Posted By: mike7I wondered if you might have any comments on the cavity insulation that I could pass on to the owner - or the builder.

    Are we allowed to swear?
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2017
     
    don't want to appear insulant, but if he intends to pay for that, he must be batts (the builder is obviously lacking in moral fibre - I would not want him in my airspace)

    gg
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2017
     
    Is that an early April Fools day joke, or did someone actually expect to get paid for 'building' it?:shocked:
    mortar snots, bridged cavity, incorrectly installed insulation, cavity wall ties?, voids in mortar beds?, etc etc.
    If the client is a friend, suggest he gets a new builder!
  2.  
    Hang on - that's an opening (I think). What's the cavity going to be closed with?
    • CommentAuthormike7
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2017 edited
     
    Thanks folks. Nick, I think there is a row of ties at dpc level, but will check. Looks like quilt to me also and not as substantial as I would expect, though I'm not in the building business.

    Gravelld - the nice young couple that live there have moved out while the work is happening so I thought they could use an extra pair of eyes...

    djh - you certainly ****ing can if you will feel better for it.

    gg & DarylP :-)

    Owners have sent the pic to their architect who is going to ask BCO to talk to the builder about it. Mmm, hope that fixes it.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2017
     
    Insulation is far too thin, is bypassed, has gaps, is not doing much good, squashed, missing, poorly installed.

    Sadly probably fairly typical of the average building job☹️
  3.  
    ''Sadly probably fairly typical of the average building job☹️''

    Agree with that, but now is probably the time, based on that return, to ask them to take down the rest!
    • CommentAuthormike7
    • CommentTimeMar 28th 2017 edited
     
    could be worse ... insulation in the old ceiling.
      IMG_2319_edited.jpg
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017
     
    Oh ignorance! But I have a plan - to go out and give talks to local WIs, WEAs etc - that should fix it.
  4.  
    ''could be worse ... insulation in the old ceiling.''

    Think positively - there's a ventilation gap.....
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017
     
    Posted By: mike7could be worse ... insulation in the old ceiling.

    So a couple of weeks ago I had the chance to look at our skeiling-ed bedroom. I already knew there was no insulation on the plasterboarded dwarf walls, and no air tightness into the void between bedroom and utility room below.

    I think it's a skeiling - the room is like an A shape with dwarf walls at the bottom.

    When I slid in on my back to take a look at the skeilings the first thing I noticed was missing panels of EPS. Annoying. But more annoying in a strange way, because it suggests lack of understanding rather than lack of thought, the old classic: the ventilation gap between the EPS and the plasterboard, rather than between the EPS and the roof covering.

    So it's a roof-tiles-off-job.
  5.  
    ''So it's a roof-tiles-off-job.''

    Though disruptive, would not a 'plasterboard-off-job' be easier, at least in terms of access?
    • CommentAuthorMarkyP
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017
     
    The work looks awful, but will the builder will see it that way? BC may be some help in at least backing up the view the work is not to an acceptable standard. Every wall built so far would need to come down on the evidence shown. The question is do your neighbours want to continue with someone who turns out such sloppy work, it will be an uphill battle for the rest of the project and relations will inevitably turn very sour. Time to draw a line, sack the builder and find someone else. All very much easier said than done, I know.
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017
     
    Could suggesting pulling it all out, and getting something like graphite-enhanced EPS beads blown in when finished instead. BASF walltite would be better (and might actually comply with building regs too), but pricey.
  6.  
    EWI!
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017
     
    Posted By: Nick Parsons''So it's a roof-tiles-off-job.''

    Though disruptive, would not a 'plasterboard-off-job' be easier, at least in terms of access?
    Maybe you're right. I just considered it out of my competence zone.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017
     
    I wonder if a mass educational "reset" of the trades are required.

    Builders should be engineers really, involved in the appliance of scientific research into building healthy, safe, sustainable dwellings.

    You can excuse the past because arguably we didn't know any better, but now, with building high performance houses essentially being a solved problem, should a new kitemark and vocational education programme for trades be offered?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017
     
    Posted By: Nick Parsonsindeed it looks like quilt, not dense batts

    Now that I look again, it actually looks like it might be Knauf Dritherm, so perhaps best to double-check before I swear about that particular aspect. :bigsmile:
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017
     
    Posted By: gravelldvocational education programme for trades

    I think those courses already exist. They're offered by at least one of our local colleges. I don't know, but I hope they are up to date. So I suspect that the problem is retraining those that have already been 'educated', perhaps in the school of life, rather than educating new, wet behind the ears youth.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017
     
    Yeah that's what I meant: a reset including existing trades.

    I'm pleased if courses do cover this stuff!

    Allied to that is certification that they put this theory into practice.

    Maybe a new qualification, chartered builder. Don't Germany have something similar?
  7.  
    But from whom do the ''new, wet behind the ears youth'' learn their 'site behaviour'? Nah, don't do it that way - trust me; I've been doing this for years!
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: Nick Parsons''So it's a roof-tiles-off-job.''

    Though disruptive, would not a 'plasterboard-off-job' be easier, at least in terms of access?
    Go for it! Perfect pretext to bite the bullet and do the pukka job that you'll never regret, rather than fiddly/holey/leaky/half-measure.

    Glue/screw 11 OSB over the rafters, yes insulation full-fill between (from above), but primarily effectively EWI on top of the OSB, then breather, downslope battens, re-lay tiles but higher up, solve verge/eave/chimney abutment situations. Forget insulating in the boxed-in eaves - now part of the internal environment - storage maybe?
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017
     
    Posted By: gravelldBuilders should be engineers really,


    OK, but then, how much would houses cost ?


    Posted By: gravelldI wonder if a mass educational "reset" of the trades are required.


    Bravo, putting your finger on it...
    However, might I transmoggrify "reset" into "re-test"...

    This is where the "massive" would come in - MOOC - massive open online courses...
    The heads in question would then have to sign up and do the learning, and sit the online exams, and get a certain pass rate.

    After which they would have to do a check site (just like commerical pilots have to do a check *flight*...).

    Then they would get a license to operate...
    ... part of said operations involving sticking their self-identifying bar-code stickers onto each part of structure that they touch...

    so that site inspections would identify who did what...

    after which they could be docked of pay for any "cork-ups"

    etc.

    gg
    :devil:
    • CommentAuthorMarkyP
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: Nick ParsonsBut from whom do the ''new, wet behind the ears youth'' learn their 'site behaviour'? Nah, don't do it that way - trust me; I've been doing this for years!


    yep, I witnessed this first hand on my job. I'd tell a young lad off for leaving gaps in the insulation then when they thought I was out of earshot one of the older brickies would mutter "ignore him, it's a load of *****cks, just get on with laying the blocks".

    I had another issue where the brickies were letting the mortar dry out too fast in baking sun last summer. The main guy literally said "we've always done it this way, we never cover our work in the sun" as if somehow years of incompetence was a justification. One of the young trainee brickies actually thought the mortar set by drying action, that the hot sun was helping the mortar set faster. I gave up and just sprayed the work down at lunch and every evening and covered in wet sheeting. The job got done and becuase I was able to surpervise them, it was to an acceptable standard but god knows what goes on when they are set loose on a job where no one is looking.

    and locally in the trade this gang is known as one of the better outfits.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017
     
    Posted By: fostertomGo for it! Perfect pretext to bite the bullet and do the pukka job that you'll never regret, rather than fiddly/holey/leaky/half-measure.

    Glue/screw 11 OSB over the rafters, yes insulation full-fill between (from above), but primarily effectively EWI on top of the OSB, then breather, downslope battens, re-lay tiles but higher up, solve verge/eave/chimney abutment situations. Forget insulating in the boxed-in eaves - now part of the internal environment - storage maybe?
    Well actually that's the long term plan. Looking for something that would get me by for a few years until I had the money to do the roof (EWI and joinery is the first job). But I think that's another thread.
    • CommentAuthormike7
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: djh
    Posted By: Nick Parsonsindeed it looks like quilt, not dense batts

    Now that I look again, it actually looks like it might be Knauf Dritherm, so perhaps best to double-check before I swear about that particular aspect.http:///newforum/extensions/Vanillacons/smilies/standard/bigsmile.gif" alt=":bigsmile:" title=":bigsmile:" >


    Yes, it's Knauf dritherm earthwool, 75mm thick nominally, in a 100mm cavity. so presumably this is intended to be a 'partial fill cavity' , described as one option on the packaging, giving a prescribed 25mm air gap. Or it would do if the 455mm batts hadn't compressed vertically by a few cms each, and expanded outward to fill the whole 100mm of the cavity. No sign of any clips or whatever to prevent this.

    My stirring has produced some result - additional wool has been stuffed into the gaps between each layer, so it looks better superficially, but I'll bet it is only for the first few inches. :sad:
  8.  
    Posted By: mike7My stirring has produced some result - additional wool has been stuffed into the gaps between each layer, so it looks better superficially, but I'll bet it is only for the first few inches.

    Of course its only for the first few inches - there is no way you can stuff that sort of insulation more than 30cm into the cavity. It might look alright from the end but the rest of the wall is going to be crap.

    A difficult situation to fix, IMO the best solution would be, as suggested above, hook out the wool and fill with EPS beads. For EWI to be effective would need a fairly airtight cavity, what chance of that?

    This, IMO, should be one where the BCO should get involved, after all he will have to sign off the works at the end and doesn't the BCO have some sort of liability for the correct build over in the UK?
   
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