Green Building Forum - Smart gas meters?

Smart gas meters?

tony — Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:24:55 +0100

What could a smart gas meter ever do that could be classed as smart?

Smart gas meters?

delprado — Mon, 17 Apr 2017 17:23:37 +0100

Agreed. Totally stupid and annoying. When they first came out I thought it meant getting rid of the big ugly meter, but of course no

Smart gas meters?

WillInAberdeen — Mon, 17 Apr 2017 20:09:50 +0100

I'd like one that informs anyone in the shower just how much energy they have used and how much it cost. Ideally it would do this loud enough for me to hear too, and I'd collect payment when they step out.

Smart gas meters?

DamonHD — Mon, 17 Apr 2017 20:14:45 +0100

Real-time accurate metering (updated local over Zigbee every 15 minutes) does indeed make that more or less possible.

Rgds

Damon

Smart gas meters?

dimengineer — Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:01:45 +0100

The problem I have with Smart meters is that it puts even more power in the hands of the supplier. I have no fiath or trust in any of the suppliers - they always "estimate" to their benefit, but at least with your own meter, you can take and keep the readings yourself.
So I am deeply suspicious of them, and believe they are a disaster in the making (in terms of angry customers)

Smart gas meters?

tony — Mon, 17 Apr 2017 21:03:51 +0100

That was already possible on commercial meters and on domestic with bespoke counter doofer. But what good would it do, are customers likely to turn their heating down as a result?

Smart gas meters?

anth.payne — Mon, 17 Apr 2017 22:16:10 +0100

Yep, smart meters are in fact pretty dumb... as all they do is automatically transmit meter readings. It is beneficial because estimates are a thing of the past.

But I find myself using my energy more carefully as my usage is displayed more visibly and real time

Smart gas meters?

SteamyTea — Tue, 18 Apr 2017 06:52:20 +0100

Tony
Do you use any real time energy display units at all in your home?

Smart gas meters?

DamonHD — Tue, 18 Apr 2017 08:38:08 +0100

Smart meters enable a bunch of things.

We (OpenTRV) have a project running with Innovate UK working on using smart metering as part of Heating as a Service. Helping people cut out the ~50% waste in space heating equates to real money (and carbon) and rapid meaningful feedback is one way to help people achieve those savings.

So maybe the smart meter shower squawk isn't such a bad idea...

Rgds

Damon

Smart gas meters?

fostertom — Tue, 18 Apr 2017 09:16:44 +0100

Smart meters have barely begun their potential of usefulness (a good reason IMHO to refuse until they do get really useful) in numerous diverse ways developed by different people/platforms, such as Damon describes.

The problem to me is the extra dose of close-by EMF pollution that they introduce, which like walkabout phones, being mains powered, are crudely profligate in their signal strength. This trend can only intensify as IoT (Internet of Things) takes hold - otherwise excellent but I wish it could all be hard-wired via the mains electricity system instead of airborne.

Or else humanity develop health-immunity to this electro-smog (quite possible) - because for sure it's far from immune so far.

Smart gas meters?

DamonHD — Tue, 18 Apr 2017 09:51:08 +0100

Smart gas meter radios have to run off a battery for years typically so are in the order of microwatts, ie many orders of magnitude less than a mobile phone next to your ear. Not that I think that 'electrosmog' is real.

Smart meters won't get useful unless people start developing the tech for them, and the tech for them won't start getting developed until there's a decent base of them installed.

Rgds

Damon

Smart gas meters?

fostertom — Tue, 18 Apr 2017 11:54:12 +0100

Posted By: DamonHDSmart gas meter radios have to run off a battery for years typically so are in the order of microwatts

Good point - what about smart electric meters and IoT sensor/senders on electrical goods - are they minimised power too, as are mobiles?

Smart gas meters?

DamonHD — Tue, 18 Apr 2017 12:12:25 +0100

Anything IoT that runs off a battery for a significant time has to be very conservative with all energy use, including radio. Anything running off harvested energy even more so.

For example, for our OpenTRV valves, our measurement/estimate/budget for radio use is an averaged 17 microwatts:

https://github.com/opentrv/OTWiki/wiki/Energy-Harvesting-Feasibility

A 2G mobile clapped to your ear in a poor reception area can be sustaining 2W, so about 100,000x more. Plus you won't be pressing any part of your body to one of our valves for an extended period, I imagine and hope.

Much other good IoT stuff will be in similar territory. Energy storage limitations make for a cruel master.

Rgds

Damon

Smart gas meters?

fostertom — Tue, 18 Apr 2017 19:48:35 +0100

Posted By: DamonHDEnergy storage limitations make for a cruel master.

Excellent news - so are we saying that 'all IoT' is parsimonous like this with signals? If not 'all', then which are as profligate as walkabout phones, which put even worst-case mobiles, as you describe, in the shade. AFAIK?

What about radio-interconnected smoke detectors constantly checking on ea other? also radio-linked front doorbell? as far as duration/intensity of signal? And how do any of these compare with in-house wifi?

Smart gas meters?

DamonHD — Wed, 19 Apr 2017 07:23:10 +0100

Regardless of the power constraints of non-mains-powered IoT, the maximum transmitted power and duty cycle is constrained (see Ofcom's exciting IR2030 document) in the ISM bands, eg 868MHz as OpenTRV uses, so that devices from different manufacturers don't simply drown one another out.

Rgds

Damon

Smart gas meters?

SteamyTea — Wed, 19 Apr 2017 08:12:58 +0100

Posted By: fostertomOr else humanity develop health-immunity to this electro-smog (quite possible) - because for sure it's far from immune so far.

Have you any scientific evidence for either of those claims?

If our telephones and broadband was not 'smart metered', would we be happy to log every call, get it audited, send in our usage by post.
As far as the billing side goes, I don't care if the a man comes and reads my meter or it is sent via radio waves (as long as the data is always and forever secure).
I don't know how many hundreds of meter readers there are, but each has a vehicle (they may be shared, but you get the idea), getting rid of that old method of data collecting has to be a good idea for everyone.

Smart gas meters?

fostertom — Wed, 19 Apr 2017 09:03:12 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTeaIf our telephones and broadband was not 'smart metered'

would be stupid, as signal-electrons moving along a wire (incl my ethernet, non-wifi connection to computer) are harmless enough. I'm all for IoT if only it could be constrained 'in the pipe' rather than spraying bleeps all over the place.

As far that old conversation-stopper, call for scientific evidence, I recall Paul In Montreal of this forum, who from personal experience 'knows' that dowsing is a real phenomenon, allows that to co-exist with his scientific approach to life, does not feel the need to froth at the mouth whenever it's mentioned, consequently may learn/realise something interesting in due course, as scientists flatter themselves to be open and curious to do.

Smart gas meters?

Simon Still — Wed, 19 Apr 2017 10:21:15 +0100

Posted By: SteamyTeaI don't care if the a man comes and reads my meter or it is sent via radio waves (as long as the data is always and forever secure).

I can't say I'm hugely worried about my aggregated power consumption data being secure either. Yes, someone could possibly work out when I'm home but much easier to do that by looking to see if any lights are on or whether the car is outside.

Smart gas meters?

anth.payne — Wed, 19 Apr 2017 14:24:54 +0100

I'm not sure smart meter tech will ever evolve. The only people invested is the energy industry and all they're interested in is meeting obligations and getting meter readings.

Having worked in the energy industry and smart metering, there was some debate over data security... the whole network is pretty secure. Realistically I'm not sure what threat your energy data usage holds. Perhaps being able to profile how and when you use energy?!?

Smart meters run off mains power, not battery. The gas meter piggybacks of the elec meter and transmits its data over GPRS.

In terms of future tech, I think the power is in smart thermostats and lighting, and the raft of other devices. Then using the IoT to manage and control these devices, learning routines and geo-location sensitivity

Smart gas meters?

Ed Davies — Wed, 19 Apr 2017 16:41:43 +0100

Posted By: anth.payneSmart meters run off mains power, not battery. The gas meter piggybacks of the elec meter and transmits its data over GPRS.

From what I read, though I don't remember where, the gas meter is (typically?) battery powered. As you say, it transmits to the electricity meter which then forwards the data via mains-powered means.

Smart gas meters?

fostertom — Wed, 19 Apr 2017 18:35:12 +0100

What's GPRS then - mains-elect-borne?

Smart gas meters?

Ed Davies — Wed, 19 Apr 2017 19:08:19 +0100

No, the data part of 2G or 3G mobile:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Packet_Radio_Service

Smart gas meters?

fostertom — Wed, 19 Apr 2017 20:55:59 +0100

Posted By: anth.payneThe gas meter piggybacks of the elec meter and transmits its data over GPRS

Posted By: Ed Daviesthe gas meter ... transmits to the electricity meter which then forwards the data via mains-powered means

Smart gas meters?

Ed Davies — Wed, 19 Apr 2017 21:50:01 +0100

Those are entirely consistent. The gas meter makes use of the electricity meter (piggybacks off it) to transmit its data. The gas meter does so by sending its data to the electricity meter by low- and battery-powered radio. The electricity meter, in turn, transmits the gas meter's data and its own to the collection point using a GPRS transmitter which is powered from the mains.

Smart gas meters?

fostertom — Wed, 19 Apr 2017 23:23:35 +0100

Ah - I thought

Posted By: Ed Daviesvia mains-powered means

meant

Posted By: fostertommains-elect-borne

Pity.

Smart gas meters?

anth.payne — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 12:09:13 +0100

Yep, you're right Ed - I could have been clearer.

Smart gas meters?

CX23882 — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 13:13:49 +0100

Have the various companies agreed on a standard, or are they all still doing their own thing? When you change supplier after a year, you need a new "smart" meter and generate more electronic waste. Hardly green.

Smart gas meters?

anth.payne — Mon, 24 Apr 2017 22:21:27 +0100

Yes there are standards. Current meters being rolled out should be SMETS2

There's a government programme called DCC which will centralise all smart meter data which will also be compatible with the older SMETS1 meters