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    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2017 edited
     
    I have been looking at many a sliding window (really, glazed sliding door) system. As the main point of a window is to let in light, I'm always keen to keep the amount of framing to a minimum.

    Whether PVC, timber or aluminium you basically end up with a mullion, where the panels meet in the middle that's at least 100mm wide. Maybe approaching 70mm, with aluminium, if you're lucky.

    But Adpol offer (I think quite recently introduced) what they call their "Adpol Vision" system - thermally broken aluminium frames which can take triple glazing - which gives you a meeting mullion that's just 20mm wide. You should be able to see from the drawing how this works.

    To my surprise the quote I got for this compared very favourably to other systems, and my thoughts are: what gives?

    It's just a simple sliding mechanism, no "lift and slide" or "tilt and slide" operation that compresses the closed panel onto gaskets. I went to the showroom to have a look at one. The seals are a combination of brush/rubber strip and there are basically two seals between inside and out, at any point. The unit in the showroom felt a bit loose - in the closed position you could wobble it about a little bit - didn't give the impression of a really tight seal.

    However, they claim air permeability rating of Class 4, in other words the highest classification under EN 12207.

    Using glazing with a Ug of 0.60 they claim a Uw of 0.70 for a window with two panels, one sliding and one fixed, each 2.2 x 3m. That's not a bad Uw value but is for a window with a high glass:frame ration. Uf is not given, but I'm going to see if I can work backwards to get an idea of what it is and what it would imply for something like I'm after which would have much smaller panel sizes.

    It seems that if I can get decent airtightness, decent U value, and minimal frame, without paying premium price there must be a catch somewhere. Is my scepticism justified?
      Screen Shot 2017-05-14 at 14.01.58.jpg
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2017
     
    .
      Screen Shot 2017-05-14 at 14.01.49.jpg
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeMay 14th 2017
     
    Nice, the glass unit is very strong and the design takes sensible advantage of that fact
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    Yep, what tony says. Looks good - too good? Let us know your further calcs/investigations. What is the price?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    What standard are the quoted numbers measured to, and by which certification authority? Do you have a link to a page with a technical description of the product and its certs? They should be able to provide a Uw for the exact window size you want, as well as provide a separate Uf value. The first link when I searched was a blog detailing the problems one customer had with this vendor, but I have no personal experience of them.
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017 edited
     
    I'm aware of that blog, which is one of the reasons I went to see them in person at the showroom, to make sure it really existed and that there are people here in the UK I can pester if there are any delays.

    Technical advice comes direct from Poland but they seem responsive. Currently waiting for a Uw for my specific size/configuration. Will post more info when I get it.

    Website page is a bit basic but here it is:

    http://adpollondon.co.uk/adpol-vision/
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017
     
    Sounds good. That website was unreachable when I first tried to reach it the other day but seems to be OK now, though there are some broken links - in particular the brochure of the exact product you're interested in. I see there's also a page with a whole load of certificates on it, which is excellent, but again not for the specific product you want. The product doesn't seem to feature on the Polish site, so I'd check the paperwork extremely carefully. I'm not entirely clear what the connection is between the firms either. I'm not being negative here, I'm just suggesting that a cautious approach is justified, as you already seem to be taking.
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeMay 15th 2017 edited
     
    Yup I'm making sure it's clear what I'm getting. Like you say there are some inconsistencies between brochures etc. I think it is a quite newly released system.
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2017 edited
     
    I've had some Uw values back.

    So, for my particular configuration (approx 2.1m high, 1.6m overall width, one slider one fixed panel):

    - the Adpol minimal frame system comes in at Uw=1.3.
    - compares with a Raynaers CP130 system, same size and config at Uw=1.72
    - or Allan Bros timber/aluclad, comes in at Uw=0.96

    All with 0.6 3G glazing.


    (edited to add timber option)
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2017
     
    Have you looked at Vitrocsa?
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2017
     
    Posted By: fostertomHave you looked at Vitrocsa?


    I have previously, when their quote was very expensive. So haven't bothered for this one. Have you had any success in getting affordable quotes from them?
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2017
     
    Posted By: lineweightSo, for my particular configuration (approx 2.1m high, 1.6m overall width, one slider one fixed panel):

    - the Adpol minimal frame system comes in at Uw=1.3.
    - compares with a Raynaers CP130 system, same size and config at Uw=1.72

    Both with 0.6 3G glazing.

    That's a big difference between Ug and Uw! Did you ask them for Uf and/or have you estimated it yourself?
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2017 edited
     
    Simply asked them for Uw.

    I started trying to work out a Uf backwards from their figures for a larger window but realised it quickly gets complicated. For example, how do you measure surface area at that meeting stile where the frame surface folds around a corner.

    I am thinking that in practice I may be able to improve on these Uw values by burying the frame into the insulation. Easy(ish) enough to do on a slider.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2017
     
    If you ask them for the certificate(s), I suppose that will have the information on it, and they should be able to supply the certificate if they're making claims.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2017
     
    Posted By: lineweightby burying the frame into the insulation
    Absolutely - and people overlook that you can double (?) the benefit by doing that inboard as well as outboard.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2017
     
    Inboard in the reveals, regardless of whether you have IWI or not? I really need to have a go on Therm, I think it would make a lot of this more obvious.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeMay 17th 2017 edited
     
    Yes - two things happening -

    one is conduction straight thro the window frame, inside to out - so cover both faces with insulation as close to the hinge line as you dare

    the other is conduction into one wall jamb, curving round the edge of the frame and out thro the other jamb (or EWI thickness).

    Without IWI, compared to the general inside face of the wall, the bit of the opening reveal where it approaches the inside of the window frame is only a short, conductive distance away from outside air.
    So cover the reveal with insulation as thick as poss, so all heat flow has to come all the way from the general inside face of the wall.
    • CommentAuthorlineweight
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomHave you looked at Vitrocsa?


    I thought I'd ask them to see what they quoted by the way. As I suspected they were expensive.

    In fact they were spectacularly expensive, quoting £29,000 for a 2100x1650 two panel sliding window. This compares to quotes from others around the £2000 mark.

    I enjoyed writing them a slightly sarcastic email checking that they hadn't got the decimal point in the wrong place. They said that they were sorry to hear that their pricing is over my budget.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2017
     
    :shocked: :surprised:
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2017
     
    Or look at all glass frameless, though admittedly with a dark border.

    http://www.foldingslidingdoors.com/discover/40-frameless-glass
  1.  
    Posted By: owlmanOr look at all glass frameless, though admittedly with a dark border.

    http://www.foldingslidingdoors.com/discover/40-frameless-glass" rel="nofollow" >http://www.foldingslidingdoors.com/discover/40-frameless-glass


    They look nice, those systems, especially from outside where they can give the impression of very slim frames. However it seems that the black border is usually at least as wide, looking straight on, as a conventional frame. This means that if you're looking for slim framing as viewed from inside, they don't actually offer much benefit.

    That said I'd expect this type of framing to gradually become more normal. Has the advantage that there's no exposed timber or metal to weather and needing repainting.

    I assume if you break one of these panels it's rather more expensive to replace than one in a conventional frame...
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2017
     
    Lineweight

    I am also looking for a sliding patio door. Currently doing lots of research and trying to get prices. This info might be useful for you.

    Waiting for a quote from russell timber tech

    Slide and fold doors in Coventry have a very open and clear site which gives you all different payment options / extras.

    For my 2 panel door at 2.35m x 4m = £3300 approx

    Express bi fold doors do a sliding door and it is £3800.

    I have posted up on here about baltic timber products, but no reply from the UK company. I have got an email back this morning from Lithuania and i think the price is £2650, but not sure about delivery. This is the website http://sumeda.lt/en/

    Rational have quoted £5160 for the same size.

    A german company over in Blackpool were £9000.

    I have to state at the moment i am looking at prices first and then i will be drilling down on the quality and thermal performances. So i don't have any ideas on which products are superior etc.

    If you have any useful info about other companies i am all ears. If you have any positive or negative comments about these companies this would be useful for me as well.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2017
     
    Posted By: lineweightI assume if you break one of these panels it's rather more expensive to replace than one in a conventional frame...

    I would guess so. My conservatory door looks like it's a conventional ali-covered timber frame, but actually it can't be dismantled, so when I broke it we had to buy a complete new door. Ouch!
  2.  
    Posted By: marsadayLineweight

    I am also looking for a sliding patio door. Currently doing lots of research and trying to get prices. This info might be useful for you.

    Waiting for a quote from russell timber tech

    Slide and fold doors in Coventry have a very open and clear site which gives you all different payment options / extras.

    For my 2 panel door at 2.35m x 4m = £3300 approx

    Express bi fold doors do a sliding door and it is £3800.

    I have posted up on here about baltic timber products, but no reply from the UK company. I have got an email back this morning from Lithuania and i think the price is £2650, but not sure about delivery. This is the websitehttp://sumeda.lt/en/" rel="nofollow" >http://sumeda.lt/en/

    Rational have quoted £5160 for the same size.

    A german company over in Blackpool were £9000.

    I have to state at the moment i am looking at prices first and then i will be drilling down on the quality and thermal performances. So i don't have any ideas on which products are superior etc.

    If you have any useful info about other companies i am all ears. If you have any positive or negative comments about these companies this would be useful for me as well.



    The following companies gave me a decent price for timber sliders:
    - Allan Brothers
    - Russel Timbertech (took ages, but good price when it came, as ever)
    - Rationel
    - Velfac

    At Eco (Internorm) gave a reasonable price for a PVC type system

    I've ended up going for aluminium due to the slimmer frames possible, which is important for me in this instance. The Adpol system mentioned in my OP is likely to be my choice. It has the slimmest frames I can find at a sensible price. Raynears CP130 system seems OK and affordable, many different suppliers/installers, get a quote from a couple. There's also the Smart Aluminium Visoglide system, again many suppliers. It has a slimmer but deeper frame than the Raynears.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2017
     
    Ok, thanks.
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