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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2017
     
    • CommentAuthorgoodevans
    • CommentTimeJun 6th 2017
     
    Famous at last
  1.  
    Farm shop is "only viable alternative to the exploitative capitalist system". Yup, that's our FT :
    :bigsmile::bigsmile::bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorgyrogear
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2017
     
    Posted By: goodevansFamous at last


    ... any resemblence to Mr Ralph McTell being totally ... architectural

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-PWZUx7cSQ

    :devil:

    gg
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJun 7th 2017 edited
     
    Gahd - it's come to this - it used to be Brian Ferry!
    Nice to hear RMcT again.

    Posted By: GotanewlifeFarm shop
    Just wait till co-operatism infects the whole of Red Lion Yard - the beads and ribbons shop, the gamer's den, the posh cafe, the bank (Barclays), the health pills shop, the rough cafe, the cinema, the jeweller, the insurance broker ...
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2017
     
    I hope that Sara has some evidence that the food they sell is of 'the highest nutrition without chemicals'.
    So carbon free then :wink:
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2017
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaI hope that Sara has some evidence
    Honestlee ST, you are wilful, beyond constructively sceptical.
    They grow most of it themselves personally, manually. I don't know if they have Soil Association Certification - probably. They are deeply, politically alert to how embodied carbon can creep in.
    You're rightly scornful of the fluffiness of e.g. Transtion Penwith - this is the real deal - or can't you/don't you want to see the difference?
  2.  
    Posted By: fostertom
    Posted By: SteamyTeaI hope that Sara has some evidence
    Honestlee ST, you are wilful, beyond constructively sceptical.

    Relax. Take the :wink: at face value.

    I thought he was simply highlighting the curious way that some people use the word chemicals as if it's not the case that everything is made from 'chemicals' (unless you wish to go beyond that to sub-atomic particles)...

    He could easily have gone on to comment on the curious idea of organic & non-organic food! Just how much food can you think of that doesn't involve carbon chemistry (otherwise known as Organic Chemistry[1] )?

    PS. I do choose to buy at least some ' organic' food, and garden with very little in the way of commercially produced inputs, but I'm clear that chemicals are involved in the process - along with physics of course. :bigsmile:


    [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_chemistry
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2017
     
    We grow a lot of our own but it's so hard not to resort to pesticides etc., or give up and resort to the nice looking supermarket veg. From the moment you sow stuff something in nature want to eat it. From basic fungus through bugs, to feather and fur, including my dog if you let her.
    The most unusual incident was a few days ago when from a thriving patch of garlic one had suddenly disappeared, no trace, except for a small crater where the growing bulb had been. Garlic eating pigeons,--mm hardly, rabbits nah, no telltale signs of footprints etc.. So, fingers into the small crater and my hand disappears into a mole/mouse/rat? tunnel. If it's not winged from above, the blighters tunnel to get at the stuff.
    The incident led me to discussing with a friend who's wife works for an agricultural chemical company how the Lincolnshire veg growers manage to have such lush looking productive fields. Drench 'em in chemicals was the simple answer.
  3.  
    Posted By: owlmanThe incident led me to discussing with a friend who's wife works for an agricultural chemical company how the Lincolnshire veg growers manage to have such lush looking productive fields. Drench 'em in chemicals was the simple answer.

    IIRC commercial bananas are one of the crops involving most 'chemical' intervention? Even though the skin (apparently?) keeps the fruit relatively isolated from the treatments, bananas are certainly one of the things on my 'organic' preferred list.

    Not that you find many bananas growing in the Lincolnshire Fens... :wink:
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2017
     
    Posted By: owlmanbut it's so hard not to resort to pesticides etc., or give up
    I was going to say there's a whole body of gardening lore, which strangely is overlooked by conventional and organic gardeners alike - practical folks call it companion interplanting; Permaculture invokes Ecological scientific knowledge - plants that are repugnant to the predators that their close neighbours suffer - mutual defence without chemicals. Prime among such defender plants are the alliums - onions, garlic etc. but now you tell me it's your garlic that's being eaten! I dunno.

    Persistent resistance to, hence ignorance of such interplanting ideas, is belief in monoculture - for gardeners pride in neat rows in bare soil; for farmers mechanically harvestable crops. Permaculture interplanting is much too messy. That's going to change, as agricultural/horticultural robots hit the scene. With AI-trained vision they can increasingly distinguish finely between the plants, detect how they're doing and act accordingly, all at speed that would leave a manual worker or gardener in the dust. with that, no more need for monoculture, hence disappearing need for pesticides or chemically treated seeds.

    In 10yrs little gardening robots will be in Lidl for the price of a spade today.
  4.  
    Posted By: fostertomIn 10yrs little gardening robots will be in Lidl for the price of a spade today.


    They will be here sooner than that!

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/tech/tertill-solar-powered-robo-gardener-10565075
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2017
     
    Wow - but coming AI will be a LOT cleverer than just distinguishing between big (plants) and little (weeds).
    • CommentAuthorbarney
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2017
     
    7 billion and counting - we ain't going to be doing companion gardening amongst the majestic broadleaf's to provide a bit of fresh for the local tribe anytime soon in my opinion

    Vast hectares mechanically planted, fertilised, drenched in pesticides and then harvested by predominantly GPS guided agricultural plant is a much more likely solution

    That coupled with vast indoor dairy and meat production facilities of course gobbling up every surrounding hectare with animal food crops

    Pontificating about where your carrots came from is such a first world problem

    Regards

    Barney
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2017
     
    My partner plants, to some extent, according to Biodynamic practice, e.g. moon phase, not the more weird stuff and generally gets quite good results, companion planting, weeding by hand, but the pigeons and rabbits are not deterred nor it would seem are the latest subterranean dwellers.
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: fostertomI was going to say there's a whole body of gardening lore, which strangely is overlooked by conventional and organic gardeners alike - practical folks call it companion interplanting;

    Perhaps you'd be please to see the marigolds planted in with our French Beans & Courgettes? They certainly provide a splash of extra colour, but that's not the main reason why they are there... :bigsmile:
    Companion planting is pretty well known. I'd think that most gardeners with an interest in 'organics' would have at least heard of it?

    Edit: Removed unintentional "quote within a quote"
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2017
     
    Posted By: barneyand then harvested by predominantly GPS guided agricultural plant
    You're only looking half way ahead - the familiar-plus-a-bit - nano plus AI is going to leapfrog over all the 20C mass-production logic of giant standardised monoculture - it won't be necessary any more, won't provide any advantage (manifestly the reverse) over millions of scurrying/flying mini-robots optimising and harvesting every plant individually, in amongst a functional ecological complex of plants (and animals). Note - ecological mutuality indispensable for optimum yield per hectare, food value (vitality), accumulating CO2 capture, human health and sanity.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJun 8th 2017
     
    I applaud your enthusiasm Tom and as a vegetarian I'm concerned, but unlike you I think the timeframe for such devices is a way off yet.
    Just to bring the blue sky thinkers into the real world for a moment, what happens when amongst all this symbiotic life in the veg patch a hare or badger or rabbit or fox whilst munching a tasty morsel takes a fancy to one of the bots and decides to "kickass", or after a real downpour and the patch is waterlogged and no Sun to recharge the solar batteries? Weeding and co-planting are only a couple of pieces in the jigsaw and the bugs will find a way round it, that's evolution. Plus, what are we going to do with all the tons of marigolds and the like that are used as pest deterrents.
    Monoculture is a nasty fact, I see it daily, as a by product of the desire to meet global warming targets, which from where I sitting, so much of which is bulls..t.
  5.  
    Posted By: owlmanPlus, what are we going to do with all the tons of marigolds and the like that are used as pest deterrents.

    Make tea to strengthen the immune system which IMO in a lot of people has been screwed leading to increased allergies etc.
    After the flowers have been picked the plants can then be incorporated as green manure.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJun 9th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: owlmantakes a fancy to one of the bots and decides to "kickass"
    That's life in the veg (or cow) patch, and the bots, above all integral the functioning ecology (otherwise don't bother - that's the whole point) are subject to all the ups and downs of Life.

    Posted By: owlmanthe bugs ...
    First, don't think still of 'bugs', rather see them as legitmate and vital members of a functioning ecological system - one that we, in our Ecological-science wisdom have consciously designed to provide us (and all the other members) with an excellent harvest of what we need (which may be different from what marketeers make us think we want).

    Posted By: owlman... will find a way round it, that's evolution
    no, that's ecology, and we simply design wisely within that.

    This is not hair-shirt, not necessarily anti-growth (though steady-state or contraction might be right at different times/places/circumstances), can be delightful and healthy.
    Indeed the only hope to be that worldwide - because sure as hell Ecology-ignoring factory farming and cash-cropping are the problem, not the solution, to worldwide delight and health - surely that's obvious by now. Do we really think 'even more of the same' will change that?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJun 9th 2017
     
    Posted By: fostertomHonestlee ST, you are wilful, beyond constructively sceptical.

    Posted By: fostertomYou're rightly scornful of the fluffiness of e.g. Transtion Penwith - this is the real deal - or can't you/don't you want to see the difference?

    But the whole point of my comments is about the 'fluffiness'.
    Agriculture, just like everything else, has to try and balance the 3 pillars of sustainability, a few small traders, using disproportionate amounts of resources is not the answer.
    No amount of talking is going to change that, serious science and engineering is needed.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJun 9th 2017 edited
     
    Thanks, friend - you feed me such beautifully distilled quotables!

    Posted By: SteamyTeaa few small traders, using disproportionate amounts of resources is not the answer
    Of course not (and who says 'disproportionate amounts of resources'?). It's a small uptick in an old idea whose time has come, as monetised traditional capitalism eats its revenue streams on down to zero, leaving space for a non-monetised, real-value alternative.
    Posted By: SteamyTeaNo amount of talking is going to change that, serious science and engineering is needed
    Indeed, lots of talking-up is going to change (or hasten) that - serious political awareness is needed - and science and engineering too, if willing to conform tothe Science of Ecology.
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