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    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJul 25th 2017
     
    On my extension i will be having 4 oak purlins in the flat roof. I can use genie lifts, but i think an easier solution is to use a telehandler.

    However, i don't think i can get one in place round the back of the house as it will be a little too long. I have a 2.8m wide drive down the side of the house, but the gap it can turn into is 3m wide and is a 90 degree turn to the right. This gap has the new extension on one side and the current garage on the other side.

    Does anyone know of a similar machine which might do the job of a telehandler, but will fit into a tighter space ?

    It needs to lift a 300kg 6.5m length of oak 3m in the air and 4.5m extended. This is the furthest beam from the new back wall. The distances then reduce to 3m, 1.5m and 0m for the last 3 beams.
    • CommentAuthorMarkyP
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2017
     
    excavator - drop the bucket and use a couple of heavy duty slings. Check with hire firm through, I think using them for lifting isnt permitted with a standard machine, they have to have been through additional HSE checks to be used for this purpose. Will it extend far enough with 300kg?

    another option is to hire a mini crane. These are very narrow so no access issues, then use extending legs as outriggers to stabilise during the lifts. This probably the most appropriate for the job.

    the bigger telehandlers are often 4 wheel steering and can make tight turns
  1.  
    I would be going low tech. Tripod legs with a chain hoist. You might have long enough timbers on site anyway, 2x4s would be enough, and you can do it in your own time (=weather) and you won't be paying some outrageous hourly fee for the machine traveling to the site and you won't churn up the ground.

    After thought - a couple of towers with a beam between (e.g. 2 2x4s) and the same chain hoist
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2017
     
    Ok thanks for info. If i go low tech i think the genie lifts are the best bet, one each side.

    The issue with this set up though means i cannot fully build the structure until the beams are in place. This means my utility wall cannot be built up as this divides the square box shape of my extension. So the first beam will have to sit diagonally in the room and then i get it up high and can turn the beam around into place when it is above the walls. The tripod and chain hoist is fixed in a position i imagine. I do need the movement go the genies.

    The mini crane is a great idea if i can get one at a reasonable price. Building the structure finished and then craning the beams in place would be much easier to do.

    The tele handler guy says he can do it for £30/h and is 10 mins away, but he wasn't sure the machine would get through. I need to go and see him to show him some photos of the entrance and access etc.

    Thanks for input.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2017
     
    Scaffold and four men, lift in place by hand.
  2.  
    long reach on Hiab on flatbed trucks are about £250 half day.
    I get the guy to pick up the beam and bring them to site them he cranes them in, over a 2 storey roof if necessary.
    they can neatly place them on your padstones surprising accurately.
    I spent years sweating using the scaffold 4 men / genie lift technique, dont think I'll bother again. :-)
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2017
     
    Scaffold and 4 men sound a little hard.

    The crane sounds a great idea. Especially when i would need to move 3 x 300kg beams round the back.

    I am seeing the oak framer this weekend to discuss options. He uses genie lifts, but not sure how much manpower he uses.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2017
     
    http://www.minicrane-hire.com/mini-cranes

    Will get some prices for these spider cranes tomorrow. They seem pretty good for the job. Just a case of how much now.

    Spoke to an off hand crane company this afternoon. £500 plus vat for half a day for a small crane which will go on the drive. Too expensive i said and he wasn't too happy.
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2017
     
    Do they walk themselves thro narrow passages, or roll on wheels and just unfurl for stability?
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJul 26th 2017
     
    I think the centre body has a track and so they move like a mini digger. The legs fold inwards so they can get through smaller spaces.
    • CommentAuthorMarkyP
    • CommentTimeJul 27th 2017
     
  3.  
    try a local steel fabricator or steel beam supplier they usually know hiab guys
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJul 28th 2017
     
    Good tip James.

    Really trying to find a tele handler which will fit and turn into the space i have. Once foundations are in i am getting my mate to have a look. I have used his machine before, but he is 40 miles away so it is a trek for him. His cost will be a straight £200 and considering 2 genie lifts for a weeks hire will be £180 this is a good option.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2017
     
    When encountered with a similar situation but with steel beams my wife and I walked the beams into place. Here's how. Plan to make three block piers on either end of the beam preferably against a wall for support. Start with three blocks on the floor Man handle the beam onto the central block and whilst stood astride the other two blocks lift the end of beam whilst your assistant puts in a block under the beam. Do the same on the other end. Continue by placing blocks to stand on and keep lifting adding a block on each end. If it is too heavy for two people to do it this way than construct a platform on either side of the beam and each end and have 2 people lift with a rope whilst a 3 person places the block. You can adapt this to your situation. We had to lift our beams in a diagonal and then when at correct height crow bared the beams onto the pad-stones. Save yourselves hundred of pounds. Put yourself in Egypt thousands of years ago and think how they might do it. A spider crane will cost you a lot I had a quote to lift some very big windows with one and a suction lift. The crane and driver was about 2K for a day including transport to site (120 miles). With everything else it was going to be a 3K job.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2017
     
    The cranes can be had for a much cheaper price than a few thousand a day, but still expensive.

    I am interested in the weight of your steel though. What was it exactly ? Lifting a 7" deep i beam which is about 1.5m in length is pretty easy for one person, still need 2 to get it in place, but lifting it off the ground is ok.

    I think a 300kg beam will need two people at one end to lift though. This is why i am sort of wanting to use some sort of lifting machinery.

    Genie lifts do what you effectively did and will cost £75 per week each plus vat. So around £200. Not to bad.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: marsadayI think a 300kg beam will need two people at one end to lift though.

    The people at one end will be lifting at least 150kg. If they're used to lifting heavy loads then 4 people at each end (~38kg each, if they all take an even share) might be OK, but if it's you and some office-working mates then I'd certainly look for another option.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2017
     
    Well we need to lift these from the drive round the back what ever happens. I am meeting an oak framer on tuesday who will be able to give me some advise as he is going to help with the install. I have one other person to help with labour but prob can get more.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeJul 30th 2017
     
    He will likely put it in on his own, don't mention cranes ot lifts til he does
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2017
     
    My steels were 150 kg 6 M long each and I was able in my mid 60's to lift one end 100 mm to get a block under so 2 could lift one end of your beam I would have thought. What section is your beam ?
    Only later when we came to lift trusses onto the roof we came across a local one man business with a light crane we could have used. His current rate is £320 for the day but can't use him for our windows as the jib needs to go under the eaves and there is no room. Hence me looking at spider cranes and no one local with one. Seems if you need to get the beams around the back then you don't have much choice. If the ground and route is suitable you could make some bogeys with bar and wheelbarrow wheels which is what I did to move steels around. Anyway good luck.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2017
     
    Yes i will be using some scaffold pole to slide the beam round the back.

    My beams are 6.5m and will be about 320kg i think. 250 x 150mm.

    The framer uses genies.
  4.  
    Posted By: marsadayThe framer uses genies.

    Be guided by what the framer wants to do - and he might even have his own genies. In fact it might be a good idea to let the framer run the show of getting the beams in place as he probably knows what he is doing better than anyone else on site at the time !
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2017
     
    Agree with Peter if you have someone coming who knows what they are doing best leave it to them. Bit puzzled about the weight of your beams, curious as to why they are that heavy unless they are sopping wet. Guess they will be air dried? which would make them about 20% moisture content and at this content weigh is in the region of 750 kg per cu metre for British or Baltic oak. I reckon given the information you may find they are not as heavy as you think. The sum is 720 kg per cu Metre at 12 % MC then add 0.5 % of this for every 1% moisture content up to 25% MC after this the rule does not hold. Totally green oak I think is about 1000 kg per Cu Metre even then it only makes them 200 kg each.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2017
     
    It says on oak sites 1161kg per cubic m. Mine are air dried 2-5 yrs, but don't know exactly how long.

    So a 6.5m x 150mm x 250mm is a 1/4 of a cubic metre. So 290 kg per beam, but that is fresh.

    If they are 750kg per CM then they will be 188 kg. A big difference. I will ask the yard how much they will weigh, plus see what the framer says tomorrow.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeJul 31st 2017
     
    It is reckoned that air drying requires 1 year per 25 mm of thickness with beams such as yours it may need longer so at 5 yrs they will have dried a considerable amount but proportionally not very much at 2 yrs. the wetter they are the greater the movement you can expect when in situ. I guess your framer will from experience be able to have a good estimate how long they have had to dry.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeAug 1st 2017
     
    Spoke to the framer and very useful to have a chat. We need one genie only and i need to get a little boggie cart made to transport the beams round the back. Very simple invention using 2 wheel barrow tyres and a triangle frame effectively.
    • CommentAuthorrevor
    • CommentTimeAug 2nd 2017
     
    Its amazing what you can do with some wheels and some threaded rod and some nuts and washers. I have made several bogeys during my build. The other investment which is worth while is a pallet truck and with some sheets of OBS to make a roadway, anything is moveable. The pallet truck at one end of a beam and a bogey on the other makes it easy to move the heaviest of beams. One of my better purchase was an electric winch from Aldi fitted to the scaffolding brought the blocks up for the brickie and when doing the inside fixed it in the loft and brought up sheets of plasterboard etc as well as buckets of plaster and mortar. Best £35 spent.
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