Home  5  Books  5  GBEzine  5  News  5  HelpDesk  5  Register  5  GreenBuilding.co.uk
Not signed in (Sign In)


Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
These two books are the perfect starting place to help you get to grips with one of the most vitally important aspects of our society - our homes and living environment.

PLEASE NOTE: A download link for Volume 1 will be sent to you by email and Volume 2 will be sent to you by post as a book.

Buy individually or both books together. Delivery is free!

powered by Surfing Waves

Vanilla 1.0.3 is a product of Lussumo. More Information: Documentation, Community Support.

Welcome to new Forum Visitors
Join the forum now and benefit from discussions with thousands of other green building fans and discounts on Green Building Press publications: Apply now.

    • CommentAuthormoogaloo
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007 edited
    I am about to move into a 1930's house and am planning on gradually greening the property. My inital tasks are to get the house rewired as well as some timber, damp and structural work. Then the next two targets are likely to be the Bathroom and Kitchen.

    So as I am getting the house rewired, I need to start thinking about lighting. For most rooms it is a simlpe case of puting normal energy saving light bulbs in. But what should I do in the Bathroom?

    Halogen is better than normal lightbulbs but not as effecient as energy savers, LED looks promising but a lot of LED stuff does not allow you to replace the bulb, I have also heard talk of the need for an LED control box?

    Any advice experience or suggestions in this area would be greatfully appreciated?
    • CommentAuthorPaul_B
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007
    I have experimented with LEDs, Compact Fluroescent and "normal" energy saving bulbs. One thing that is hard to get os the warmth associated with a tungsten / halogen bulb. However, the latest LEDs look very promising. Some new ones on the market are rated between 3 and 5w the latter being both dimmable and giving an output equivalent to 40W. They are expensive though.

    As for control units you are probably referring to LED drivers, to all intense and purposes it is like a special transformer and is not that expensive.

    If you Google for 5W Cree Chip (Single ultra High Power Led) you get some idea.

    Good luck and let us know what you choose
    • CommentAuthormoogaloo
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007
    It looks like you can get an LED version of a GU10 Halogen Bulb which uses about 10% of the energy of the Halogen equivelant. So I might go for a normal downlight install and use LED GU10 bulbs in there place. But I don't seem to be able to find out if they are still ok for bathroom / shower use?
    • CommentAuthorPeter A
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007 edited
    Posted By: moogalooIt looks like you can get an LED version of a GU10 Halogen Bulb which uses about 10% of the energy of the Halogen equivelant. So I might go for a normal downlight install and use LED GU10 bulbs in there place. But I don't seem to be able to find out if they are still ok for bathroom / shower use?

    Moogaloo, LED are fine for bathrooms, it's the actual downlighter that you need to think about, as you say most GU10 downlighters will accommodate a LED bulb. The bathroom is divided into zones in each of these zones you can only fit certain electrical fittings, an ordinary downlighter as you propose can be used anywhere except within 600mm of the edge of a bath or shower tray, over these you will need to use an IP65 rated downlighter, the LED will fit in these. Only problem is that they look different as they have a glass cover.
    I you do use LED's try a blue one over the bath, it's quite impressive when you fill the bath.
    Hope this helps.
    Couple of quick thoughts from my attempts in the past on kitchens and bathrooms:

    Lighting - Consider day and night lighting. The Cree chip based LED lighting or Luxeon 2 based led bulbs, are good for general lighting, get blue white though. Our last bathroom used IP54 rated tiny LED spots (blue white) for night time use only (i.e. they were on by PIR trigger and were fine for night use) and used 0.1W in total - great for the kids getting up in the night and very simple to do up front. We use the same thing now in the new house for the stairs, landing and bathroom - stops the kids falling down the stairs and provides enough light to get about without turning the CFL lights on and off.

    Water - Consider plumbing for grey water. Your could use grey water for flushing the loo, dishwasher and washing machine etc. Even if your not planning to go grey water from day one, it's near on impossible to retrofit without digging up floors etc. I ran a grey water circuit back into the loft which I initially connected back into the mains, but changed for a grey water tank later.

    Ventilation - kitchen and bathroom produce nice amount of warm but humid air. A combined passive 'stack' to pull air from both sources is easy to put in day 1, but difficult to retrofit. Can't do it in my current house (too complex), but in the last one the bathroom and kitchen vented into the loft through a ridge vent. Not very efficient, but the plan was to do some form of recirculation of the warm air back into the house.

    bit off topic the last couple of things, but good to plan up front
    • CommentAuthorPeter A
    • CommentTimeMar 29th 2007
    Mogaloo, just picking up on a couple of Adrians points.

    If you have an internal bathroom ie no window why not think about a Sunpipe, no need for electricity in day or moonlit nights, had thought about putting some of those garden pv lights around plastic dome externally so you could have free lighting.

    Think about positive ventilation, Nuaire Drimaster, easy to fit in loft space, no ducting required, good air quality, chases away condensation and mould, good for asthma and hay fever suffers, manufacturer claims 450 kWh/pa energy saving (testing 10 at mo so will know actual in about 9 months time) and you can upgrade to better energy saving model (Ecosmart)if you so desire.

    Personally wouldn't touch grey water yet, rainwater is safer bet, but if you do put pipework in as Adrian says you will be future proofed.
    • CommentAuthormoogaloo
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2007
    OK have had a look at various LED things on the interweb. The cree chip based MR16 bulbs do seem to pack more luminum. So this is looking light the go-er. Led does seem to be a growing technolegy at the moment with street lamps even being made LED and they seem to be forever getting more light from LEDs per watt of power put in. Maybe this is the future of enegry saving lighting?

    Thanks for the other infos like the ventalation/heat recovery stuff I am looking into this as well.
    • CommentAuthorPaul_B
    • CommentTimeApr 2nd 2007
    Moogaloo I agree with your observations on LED. The lum output is getting higher and even at 5W they probably uner-cut CFL at 7W. However, the offer some additional benefits. They run cool, they have no inrush current, they don't flicker, they don't take time to "warm-up", they last longer then even fluroescent lights. One thing I have no idea about is the enviromental impact in the manufacturing process and the ability to recycle after they have been used?
    • CommentAuthormoogaloo
    • CommentTimeApr 4th 2007
    I have tried looking into Heat Recovery and Ventilation systems and they seem to be saying all positives, cooler in the summer, hotter in the winter, better air quality, energy efficient and that they can be used for Bathroom and Kitchen air extraction.

    Adrian, mentioned having a passive stack to ventilate the Kitchen and Bathroom. Can I passively vent this together with a Heat Recovery Ventilation system or would I need something that integrates the lot.

    Also how much would this cost for an average 3 bed semi to be supplied and fitted and who can fit this kind of thing?
    • CommentAuthorPeter A
    • CommentTimeApr 4th 2007
    In an existing home I wouldn't get too hung up about heat recovery, they are easy to install in new build but allowances for duct runs can be a problem in existing, especially the kitchen, you will also need to put up either vent tiles in the roof or holes through the wall for air in and out.
    Passive Stack has similar issues and the ducting is a much higher spec and cost, you also need to fit special roof tiles with all the associated access problems and costs.
    I fitted the Nuaire Drimaster Positve Ventilation unit, great air quality, you will notice it the first morning and then it will be the norm, greatly reduces condensation on windows and banishes mould, good for hay fever and asthma suffers. on the downside the vent cowl on the landing could look better but once up it's soon forgotten. The hardest bit of the instal is the electrical connection, a good sparks can do the lot for you if DIY isn't your cup of tea. Not sure what they retail at to public expect in region of £300-350.
    Hope this helps.
    • CommentAuthormoogaloo
    • CommentTimeApr 4th 2007
    On the Nuaire Drimaster Positve Ventilation website http://www.nuaireforhomes.co.uk/drimaster365.shtml it talks about this doing "Heat Recovery" so I guess this is different from a Heat Recovery System and more suited to fitting into an existing home as they are only recover heat that has found it's way into the loft, rather than putting in specific duct routes in from rooms?

    In the diagram it shows that it has a vent that goes to an outlet at the bottom of the roof. Does this need some kind of work to integrate it with eaves?

    Price wise it sounds good, the ecosmart sounds interesting too. Let me know if my understanding is correct.
    • CommentAuthorPeter A
    • CommentTimeApr 4th 2007
    Hi Moogaloo,
    I suppose they could claim it was heat recovery of sorts, the also claim that it collects solar gain in the loft space, time will tell am currently testing some.
    The Drimaster has no connection to the eaves it just hangs in the loft with the only duct going to the landing ceiling. The Ecosmart has a duct going to the eaves on the elevation that is closest to north for summer cooling, would need some work there but providing you aren't in a three storey townhouse a ladder and a good head for heights should do the job, have fitted several Ecosmarts and monitoring them aswell, seems like a good product.
    • CommentAuthormoogaloo
    • CommentTimeApr 10th 2007
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Peter A</cite>The Ecosmart has a duct going to the eaves on the elevation that is closest to north for summer cooling, would need some work there but providing you aren't in a three storey townhouse a ladder and a good head for heights should do the job, have fitted several Ecosmarts and monitoring them aswell, seems like a good product.</blockquote>

    I don't suppose you are based anywhere near Kent? It would be great if you could fit one for me!
    • CommentAuthorPeter A
    • CommentTimeApr 10th 2007
    Hi Moogaloo, Sorry don't do fitting, just give advice, if you go onto Nuaire website they might have a list of contractors, if not they should have a contact email address and should be able to give you details of a local installer. Any problems get back to me and will see what else I can do.
    • CommentAuthormoogaloo
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2007 edited
    The ecosmart retails at £1536 eek. which Drimaster model have you been installing?
    • CommentAuthorPeter A
    • CommentTimeApr 12th 2007
    Moogaloo, Just been fitting the base model.
    • CommentAuthorarthur
    • CommentTimeApr 13th 2007
    "Halogen is better than normal lightbulbs"

    is this correct?
    I thought they were worse. They seem to get very hot.

    Another thing worth thinking about is that downlighters tend to involve cutting a big hole in your ceiling which (if its an upstairs bathroom) creates issues for air-tightness (damp bathroom air seeping into your loft is a particularly bad idea) and for insulation since there are problems with covering them with insulation. These aren't insurmountable but do create problems.
    • CommentAuthorPeter A
    • CommentTimeApr 14th 2007
    I thought they were worse aswell.
    You can get downlighters that perform well from an air leakage angle, Smaclite do a fire rated accoustic downlighter that has low air leakage, also do a low energy version. We recently had a presentation by BRE on site re air leakage, they tested one of the houses and were very surprised at how well the Smaclite downlighters performed.
    • CommentAuthormoogaloo
    • CommentTimeApr 20th 2007
    Well I have fitted Warm White 3 watt cree GU10 LEDs (3 in Bathroom, 6 in Kitchen), unfortunately one of the bulbs shipped was not a warm white and another had a brocken contector so I will be getting these replaced. Quite expensive at £15 a pop.

    They look and function much as their halogen equivelents, giving of 120 Lumens per bulb, only two down points, they all have a very low level buzz to them and their is some color varation between the bulbs.

    I have yet to turn them on when it is very dark, so I will comment further when I get the full set and can test them properly.
    • CommentAuthorAds
    • CommentTimeApr 23rd 2007
    To ventilate kitchens and bathrooms with a modicum of heat recovery wouldn't the Kiltox/Kair units do the job relatively cheaply http://www.kiltox.co.uk/ventilation.htm ? Does anyone have any experience of them?
    Good find - interesting product. I've been looking for something like this, so perhaps I'll give it a go and let you know what it's like.
Add your comments

    Username Password
  • Format comments as
The Ecobuilding Buzz
Site Map    |   Home    |   View Cart    |   Pressroom   |   Business   |   Links   

© Green Building Press