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    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 24th 2017
     
    Some have been successfully filled in the UK with no problems

    I have used up to 300mm EPS under concrete slabs but built that way as opposed to retrofitted

    There are some beam and block systems that use infill polystyrene blocks.

    Those all in the UK
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2017
     
    @djh Honest question: does that matter?
    • CommentAuthordelprado
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2017
     
    Is it really a monster business opportunity? Won't the cavity installers, who are already dying a death, just going to do it? I have our local one, the MD of which, coming round to my place next week to look at doing it
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2017
     
    Posted By: tonyThere are some beam and block systems that use infill polystyrene blocks.

    But they still have a void underneath.

    Posted By: gravelld@djh Honest question: does that matter?

    If the goal is to get to a point where full-filled suspended floor cavities with no ventilation is standard practice in the UK, accepted without question by all BCOs, then precedent is a useful weapon. Specifically an ETA from any European country is sufficient to get BCO approval.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2017
     
    Would the UK examples do?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2017
     
    Paul, I am going to be very interested to hear what they say when the come, I suspect that they will refuse to do it. I would have no hesitation and am volunteering to help if you wish, I have a bead blowing set up that connects to a compressor (I ain’t got a compressor though)
  1.  
    Posted By: delpradoIs it really a monster business opportunity? Won't the cavity installers, who are already dying a death, just going to do it? I have our local one, the MD of which, coming round to my place next week to look at doing it
    That's great! If you want to give one of us a call while he's at your house to discuss his concerns it may help the process?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 25th 2017
     
    Semantics

    Building regs want floor void ventilated.

    If there is no void (like a ground bearing slab for instance) then there is no longer a need for that ventilation.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2017
     
    If you seriously want to make a change then you need to read and understand the rules properly.
    • CommentAuthordelprado
    • CommentTimeOct 26th 2017
     
    Thanks Tony.

    They were willing to full fill my chimneys as long as I signed a disclaimer. I will let you know how it goes!
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2017
     
    I know that Sofie Pelsmakers has installed quite a few monitoring systems, so could be asked for data if there's not already any published.

    As a slight twist, for one which was done in Hove (I knew the client and builder), we placed a load of scrap EPS and PIR board offcuts into the void before pumping the beads in, which saved about 50% of the volume...
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 28th 2017
     
    I have seen the monitoring, temperature and heat flux sensors, magnificent work with great savings in heat loss, over 90%. No air tightness results apart from thermal images which show air infiltration at perimeter
    • CommentAuthordelprado
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2017
     
    Sophie warned me here is no way of knowing whether it will cause issues or
    Not
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 29th 2017
     
    Posted By: delpradoSophie warned me here is no way of knowing whether it will cause issues or Not

    She might well know whether it is accepted practice in any other countries?

    If not, then there's a reasonably small amount of effort required to get it approved in any particular case, or a mountain to climb to get it generally accepted (as in added to an AD or even get an ETA issued).

    Personally, I think it should work, but I'm not a professional in the field and I don't carry insurance for anything I say :bigsmile:
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2017
     
    In the case of the building in Hove - 1930s semi bungalow - the floor joists didn't run into the external walls (that's reasonably common practise in Brighton/Hove due to high driving rain), and there were no existing air bricks. Because of this, the BCO was happy for the floor void to be full-filled.
    • CommentAuthordelprado
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2017
     
    Why do you even need to tell building control if the floor void is filled? What triggers that.

    I go back to Sophie warning me there is no data which suggests it is completely safe.

    Meeting this morning went ok ish - company are happy to do it, but the man didnt recommend it, without giving any real reason
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2017
     
    Improving more than 25% of any building element triggers partL1b
    • CommentAuthordelprado
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2017
     
    that can be true at face value - what is a building element, for a start

    i replaced 100 percent of the plaster in my house but thats obviously not notifiable
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: delpradoi replaced 100 percent of the plaster in my house but thats obviously not notifiable


    If you skimmed over, then it's not notifiable, if you knocked back to the brick first, then it is.

    In practice very few people know that and/or are ever actually notify.
  2.  
    ''Improving more than 25% of any building element triggers partL1b''

    It's been 50% of individual elements, or 25% of the whole *building envelope* in the case of major renovation, for the last few years, but they re-defined how you assess the thermal element. For IWI, for example, it's 50% of the wall *of the room you are stood in*.


    ''that can be true at face value - what is a building element, for a start''

    ADL1B gives guidance. I think they use the term Thermal Element - so anything which gives onto the 'outside' (incl floors).





    ''i replaced 100 percent of the plaster in my house but thats obviously not notifiable''

    As TimSmall says, if it is more than re-skimming, yes it is.

    I have never met a plasterer who refused to replace external render like-for like, even though part L kicks in.

    *Some get-out clauses exist.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 30th 2017 edited
     
    TimSmall wrote: "If you skimmed over, then it's not notifiable, if you knocked back to the brick first, then it is."

    Do you have a reference for that, please Tim?

    https://www.tameside.gov.uk/buildingcontrol/guidancenotes/note24guide2.pdf for example suggests that adding an extra skim is notifiable.

    edit: to make a clickable link
  3.  
    I think it's a moot point as to whether re-skimming would be regarded by BCOs as notifiable, but hack off and re-plaster - yes.
    • CommentAuthorgoodevans
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2017
     
    That's a tough document - my parents had to re-felt their pitched roof before sale (but retained the tiles) - at no stage did the roofer or anyone else bring this up.

    The definition of an element is far stricter than most would imagine.
    i.e. it's 25% of an extension roof - not the total roof
    or 25% of a room's external wall - not 25% of all walls or even 25% of an elevation.

    Hack off too much plaster (regardless of how thin it is) on an external wall and you are caught.

    Even a 3 bay detached open fronted garage is not an exempt building (>30m2) - you would have to justify not doing the work based on a >15 year payback (no saving because of the big hole in the front and/or no heating).
    • CommentAuthorgoodevans
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2017 edited
     
    Bringing it back to the original purpose of this post.

    This is not a huge business opportunity - this is because there will no huge profit due to there being no barriers to competition (no patent, no expensive kit, easy to acquire polystyrene beads) however this would be a huge benefit to the country.

    If I thought a BCO would pass it I would have gone for a simple beam and block floor with 300mm+ of unvented full fill highly compressible polystyrene beads underneath (to accommodate heave without lifting the floor).

    Retrofitting is an option - but it would always be done at the householders risk (the installer would not have the incentive to risk remedial works). And when it comes to selling the property any survey is going to show an issue - so it will have to be removed - or a like minded buyer would have to be found.

    Unless the BRE or similar not for profit body do the testing and legwork this will always be very difficult to bet setup as standard practice.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2017
     
    I have tried several times to apply for grants to develop this but no one is interested.

    Still trying — BRE are a commercial organisation now so no hope there.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2017
     
    Posted By: goodevansEven a 3 bay detached open fronted garage is not an exempt building (>30m2)

    It's not exempt from building regulations, true, but as long as it is an unheated garage, Part L does not apply. It doesn't need insulation, nor to be airtight.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2017
     
    Posted By: goodevansUnless the BRE or similar not for profit body do the testing and legwork this will always be very difficult to bet setup as standard practice.

    Agreed; that's why I asked whether any other countries had already done the work. It's by far the easiest route to approval.

    Tony, BRE is a commercial organization but it is owned by a charity and its purposes include building research and development of building regulations, so I wouldn't write them off as a possibility. I suspect it would be a case of getting to people on the research side rather than the commercial sales side. Sometimes they attend industry conferences or AECB meetings or the like. Ecobuild?
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeOct 31st 2017
     
    Posted By: djhDo you have a reference for that, please Tim?


    I'll see if I can find one.

    I did research this to death early this year, since I looked into this for a claim against a property developer where about one third of the plaster in each room was hacked back (for damp proofing), and the whole lot reskimmed.

    I came to the conclusion that adding an extra layer got them out of it, and they were under the 50% of each wall threshold, so we couldn't pursue it.
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