Green Building Forum - Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

Simon Still — Fri, 10 Nov 2017 15:15:25 +0000

https://www.uk-water-filters.co.uk/treatments/saltless_water_softeners.html

I'm looking for a 'undersink' unit (https://www.uk-water-filters.co.uk/Your_Scale_Centurion_Undersink_Cartridge.html) but more detail on the page above. Trying to work out if it actually works or not. I can't find anyone else in the Uk selling them which makes me suspicious

"Our Scale Centurion is a proven and fully tested technology.
It works by extracting harmful dissolved limescale from your water via a patented process.
The Scale Centurion beads mimic the natural tendency of dissolved limescale to crystallise by forming microscopic hard crystals on the media surface. But it accelerates the process before the scale can stick to pipe and other surfaces further downstream.
Once the microscopic crystals grow large enough, they are freed from the surface by the water pressure / flow.
When the Scale Centurion treated water dries on surfaces, these crystals form a fine residue that is easily wiped off without any need for scouring cleansers. Often you won't see any residue at all.
Please note our salt fee softeners do NOT use Polyphosphates. These remove only 81% of Scale, release chemicals into the water and require regular replacement.
The unique media in our softeners create a ceramic template which allows the calcium ions to form into non-scaling crystals (guaranteed). "

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

tony — Fri, 10 Nov 2017 16:22:03 +0000

It looks very like a ceramic filter to me, these remove particles but ions like calcium and carbonate

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

SteamyTea — Fri, 10 Nov 2017 23:06:56 +0000

I am sure there was a large discussion about these, or something similar. It involved a woman who was the importer.
Do a search on here and see what you can find.

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

CWatters — Sat, 11 Nov 2017 10:26:18 +0000

Looks very similar to this one?...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Water-Softener-Alternative-effective-Prevention/dp/B00JVZE5P6/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&qid=1461574256&sr=8-1&keywords=Water+Softener+Alternative+System,+Proven+99.6%25+effective+Scale+Prevention&linkCode=sl1&tag=bestspy-21&linkId=a56c34cdbe477019bda307e4c9c05611

Read the reviews carefully. Even the 5 star review says..

"The hardness is not removed but changed to a different "non sticky" state hence the change to what happens within the pipework. Does it work? YES Does it make the water feel soft and give better lather? NO - All the minerals in the water stay there but are changed to stop damage to your system."

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

CWatters — Sat, 11 Nov 2017 10:44:32 +0000

Posted By: Simon Still https://www.uk-water-filters.co.uk/treatments/saltless_water_softeners.html

Shop around. That first web site says...

"The usual price is Â£597 - Our special offer price is Â£497 - all inclusive" and
"The replacement anti-scale media costs just Â£147. (It will last you a further 2 plus years"

While here..
https://www.uk-water-filters.co.uk/no-salt-softener-single-unit-20l-min.html

Its "only" Â£297.

but the casing appears to be a reasonably standard water filter case so you might be able to make your own using their "magic" filter in a third party case for less.

Would I buy one? Not a chance.

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

CWatters — Sat, 11 Nov 2017 11:05:16 +0000

Some companies selling what look like similar products refer to a study by Arizona State University. I had a look and found what I think is that study here..

http://softwaterspecialistsllc.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2011-ASU-Study-No-Salt-Water-Conditioners.pdf

It's worth a read. It refers to a "Template Assisted Crystallization" method of reducing scale which appears to prevent scale formation but not sure if it also makes the water feel better and/or reduce soap use. Also says.. "Life of Media â€“ recommended change 12-18 months".

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

CWatters — Sat, 11 Nov 2017 11:10:41 +0000

Looks like critical review of "Template Assisted Crystallization" here..

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/catscams.html#EPI

Jury still out it seems.

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

djh — Sat, 11 Nov 2017 13:09:09 +0000

Posted By: Simon StillI'm looking for a 'undersink' unit

What do you intend to use the processed water for?

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

Simon Still — Mon, 13 Nov 2017 10:57:58 +0000

Posted By: djh
Posted By: Simon StillI'm looking for a 'undersink' unit

What do you intend to use the processed water for?

My Espresso machine/water dispenser in our fridge/freezer. The plan is to take the fridge apart and by pass the internal filter (which are meant to be replaced 6 monthly. Genuine cartridges are criminally expensive, but even using cheap generics I'll save money).

Advice from a coffee forum (!) was to use Brita as per
http://www.brita.co.uk/brita/en-gb/ppd/purity-c-quell-st/purity_c_quell_st.grid

Designed for the catering industry, high capacity cartridges (so only need replacing annually) and can pick them up at a good price on eBay. I

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

djh — Mon, 13 Nov 2017 11:45:06 +0000

We buy our filter units and filters from Pozzani and have been happy over the years. I think the 6 month replacement interval is to do with biological growth in the filters, but in our case it is pretty obvious that the anti-scale needs replacing at that time anyway.

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

SteamyTea — Tue, 14 Nov 2017 08:05:57 +0000

Espresso and fridge cooled tap water, rather a western middle class problem this isn't it

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

Simon Still — Tue, 14 Nov 2017 15:44:49 +0000

Posted By: SteamyTeaEspresso and fridge cooled tap water, rather a western middle class problem this isn't it" title="">

Absolutely. :-)

2 things I'd wanted for a long time and would now have trouble living without. I only drink one coffee most days but now it's a really good one.

I thought chilled water would be a waste of time (it was the ice maker that had always been a want) but we drink a seem to drink a lot more water as a result (and less squash/hot drinks) and visitors seem the same.

There are some things we bought/built into the house I'd not bother with again but the fridge isn't one of them

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

TimSmall — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 13:53:47 +0000

Not sure why, but these lyrics stick in my head... https://youtu.be/xk2QbCDRP0U?t=1m11s

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

djh — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 17:22:48 +0000

Posted By: TimSmallNot sure why, but these lyrics stick in my head... https://youtu.be/xk2QbCDRP0U?t=1m11s

Brilliant! Why have I never heard them before?

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

WillInAberdeen — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 21:07:09 +0000

Anyone know why do water chillers need softened water at all? If the water tastes bad, its not because of lime carbonates, look at sales of 'mineral' water.

Maybe due to chlorine, but 'assisted crystallization' won't remove that.

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

djh — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 21:35:49 +0000

Posted By: WillInAberdeenAnyone know why do water chillers need softened water at all? If the water tastes bad, its not because of lime carbonates, look at sales of 'mineral' water.

Maybe due to chlorine, but 'assisted crystallization' won't remove that.

In our case, it's not for a chiller but for water that we put into the kettle, which my wife got fed up of descaling. I expect the same is true of coffee machines; I don't know about chillers.

edit: For myself if I want to drink water, or squash, I drink it from the 'raw' water tap, specifically to get the minerals that cause hardness.

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

SteamyTea — Wed, 15 Nov 2017 22:03:16 +0000

Posted By: TimSmallNot sure why, but these lyrics stick in my head

I hate Nerys Hughes.
There will be trouble in Trumpton

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

WillInAberdeen — Thu, 16 Nov 2017 09:03:58 +0000

DJH, if you are worried about your calcium intake, you wont find any meaningful amount by drinking tap water. How about swapping your espresso for a latte? Or a good old mug of milky tea? I Might Not Be A Doctor.

Seriously, has anyone who has one of those big fridges tried just removing the expensive water filter? What's the point of it? Lime scale happens where water evaporates, and that's not in a chiller or ice maker.

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

djh — Thu, 16 Nov 2017 14:38:20 +0000

Posted By: WillInAberdeenDJH, if you are worried about your calcium intake, you wont find any meaningful amount by drinking tap water.

I'm not worried about my intake of calcium. I would be worried about my intake of sodium if I drank lots of softened water.

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

Peter_in_Hungary — Thu, 16 Nov 2017 18:08:04 +0000

Posted By: djh
Posted By: WillInAberdeenDJH, if you are worried about your calcium intake, you wont find any meaningful amount by drinking tap water.

I'm not worried about my intake of calcium. I would be worried about my intake of sodium if I drank lots of softened water.

I thought the general advice was not to drink softened water........

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

Simon Still — Fri, 17 Nov 2017 09:34:54 +0000

Posted By: WillInAberdeen
Seriously, has anyone who has one of those big fridges tried just removing the expensive water filter? What's the point of it? Lime scale happens where water evaporates, and that's not in a chiller or ice maker.

The filters they come with don't soften - they're just carbon filters. Chlorine/metals/particles. I want to by pass mine, use a "cheaper to run" external filter that does soften and use the water for my coffee machine (which will die expensively if I keep running it on hard water).

I've always mocked filtered water in the past (after all, our tap water is safe to drink) but the chilled, filtered, water from the fridge is a lot nicer than standard tap water. I go downstairs from the office rather than drink the water from our ensuite (and i put an unsoftened tap in there for the purpose).

Posted By: Peter_in_Hungary
Posted By: djh
Posted By: WillInAberdeenDJH,
I thought the general advice was not to drink softened water........

slight increase in sodium. Only advised to worry if you're specifically on a low sodium diet

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

RobL — Fri, 17 Nov 2017 09:48:19 +0000

Another vote for the Pozzani under kitchen sink filters - we got the ix600 5 or 10 years ago. It tastes better - mainly I expect it's removing the chlorine that does that. Also swaps ions out for calcium phospate, maybe it helps a kettle/coffee m/c ? I always drink cold water using it, but don't normally bother filling kettle/cooking using it.

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

TimSmall — Tue, 13 Oct 2026 20:05:56 +0100

I will soon be doing surgery on the hot and cold plumbing here to remove the combi boiler and install a heat pump and the likely hot water cylinder manufacturer says "Where the total hardness exceeds 125 ppm a high capacity water softener, or suitable water conditioner, should be installed in the incoming cold water supply to the cylinder". Most other cylinder manufacturers say something similar.

Since our water supply is 265 ppm CaCO3, I will therefore need some sort of something (or accept no warranty and a potential loss of efficiency). I was wondering if anyone had any experience with these TAC filters now?

You seem to be able to buy them for about £70 to £300 depending on flow rate spec and pre-filtration options (pre-filtration seems to be advisable in many cases to prolong the lifespan of the TAC media). You can of course also pay considerably more, but it's not clear what advantages (if any) these more expensive options offer.

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

djh — Wed, 14 Oct 2026 09:19:59 +0100

Posted By: TimSmallTAC filter

No experience and a great deal of scepticism You're braver then me!

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

build4less — Wed, 14 Oct 2026 10:21:28 +0100

Declaring an interest: we're Build4less, a building materials supplier, but this is general experience rather than a product pitch.

A couple of things worth knowing before you spend. TAC doesn't take the hardness out, it turns the calcium into tiny crystals that stay in suspension, so a test strip after the unit will still read 265 ppm. That matters if the cylinder warranty is ever argued over, so I'd email the manufacturer and get it in writing that a TAC unit counts as a "suitable water conditioner" for their coil. Some will only accept a proper ion exchange softener or a polyphosphate doser.

On the cheap versus expensive question, what you're mostly paying for is a vessel sized for your peak flow rate (too small and the water just rushes past the media), a sediment and chlorine pre filter so the media lasts, and independent test data. Look for DVGW W 512 certification; most of the £70 ones have none.

The good news is a heat pump cylinder sitting at around 50°C scales far less than a combi heat exchanger running hot, and keeping the legionella cycle weekly rather than daily helps too. If you do go for a salt softener instead, keep an unsoftened drinking tap in the kitchen.

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

WillInAberdeen — Wed, 14 Oct 2026 10:39:28 +0100

The cylinder manufacturer is likely most concerned about warranty claims on the immersion heater element, which runs much hotter than the heatpump coil does.

If you're not using the immersion very often then likely you will be fine, and even if it did fail, the cost of a replacement element is probably cheaper than fitting a water softener.

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

TimSmall — Wed, 14 Oct 2026 16:21:49 +0100

Thanks for those comments.

University of Waterloo study (Ottawa) found little effect, so may be back to putting up with limescale...

https://dspacemainprd01.lib.uwaterloo.ca/server/api/core/bitstreams/0f785306-1d0a-4402-9648-812fdad01c24/content

Salt Free Water Softener - is this bunk?

djh — Wed, 14 Oct 2026 21:25:13 +0100

We fitted a conventional water softener (tablet-based). I wouldn't go back to limescale