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    • CommentAuthordelprado
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2017
     
    If you have to use them, in a renovation, is there any options out there that minimise bridging?

    Ancon Teplo range

    https://www.ancon.co.uk/products/wall-ties-restraint-fixings/cavity-wall-ties/ties-for-brick-to-block-construction
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2017
     
    They are good, I used them, someone was selling left over ones on here recently
    • CommentAuthordelprado
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2017
     
    I am suprised you used them Tony - arent they a significant compromise still? They are still a thermal bridge after all
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2017
     
    Bassalt fibre, verylike fibreglass with lumps, as good as it gets, something has to tie the masonry s kind together and I wouldn’t use metal ties, tried for nylon but not made long enough for my 300mm cavity.
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2017
     
    Posted By: delpradoI am suprised you used them Tony - arent they a significant compromise still? They are still a thermal bridge after all

    As Tony says you have to tie the wythes together somehow. There are cavity-walled passivhaus and they use those ties; it's all a compromise but you just have to do better eleswhere - make the cavity wider or whatever.

    Of course simplest is not to use cavity-walled construction, but people in this country are obsessed with it.
    • CommentAuthordelprado
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2017
     
    Denby Dale used these ties (and so my concerns have evaporated). There is an interesting research paper which talks about Denby and in it was this fact which I thought was interesting

    in Austria or Germany (and the former almost has exclusively timber while the latter uses solid masonry, in each case externally insulated). And also interesting that cavity is still common in Benelux and Denmark.
    • CommentAuthorDonkey
    • CommentTimeNov 14th 2017
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: tony</cite>They are good, I used them, someone was selling left over ones on here recently</blockquote>

    It was Woodgnome who was selling them.
    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=12994
    • CommentAuthordelprado
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2017
     
    Thanks. I need 200mm long and only 35. They come in boxes of 55 so ordered from TP yesterday
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2017 edited
     
    This stuff is supposed to do away with the need for cavity wall ties (one of its uses is as a remedial wall tie alternative).

    http://walltite.basf.co.uk/applications/wall-applications/masonry-cavity-wall-insulation

    ... giant brick SIP ! The video on that page is interesting to watch. It'd be good to keep an eye on the installers too.

    I think the same system can be used to fill residual cavities too, which might be a good thing to do for PIR-filled new build walls to stop thermal bypass.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2017
     
    Posted By: TimSmallThis stuff is supposed to do away with the need for cavity wall ties (one of its uses is as a remedial wall tie alternative).


    It's an interesting product (other are available, such as Isothane Technitherm), however omitting wall ties would mean that until the insulation was installed the cavity wall would not be structurally sound - which could endanger the building (or maybe just the external leaf if the internal leaf has sufficient support from cross-walls) if the wind picked up during construction, for example.
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2017
     
    It is permissable to put in lower strength structural support during construction, on the grounds that designing for a once in 200 year wind storm during a 1 month construction window is not justified, but I agree that this needs to be considered. I wonder if temporary ties (shuttering style) would be viable?
  1.  
    For new build would it be acceptable to install the product, say, half a floor at a time? At least then you could confirm a good fill and it would aid the structural soundness of the build.

    For retro fit a quick calculation would seem to show that a cavity wall would get down to about 0.35 U value or better depending on the cavity width. IMO a fairly decent figure for a retro-fit without going too much over the top. Of course it depends upon the costs........
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeNov 15th 2017
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryFor new build would it be acceptable to install the product, say, half a floor at a time? At least then you could confirm a good fill and it would aid the structural soundness of the build.

    I expect the BBA covers that. I can't be bothered to check :bigsmile:

    For retro fit a quick calculation would seem to show that a cavity wall would get down to about 0.35 U value or better depending on the cavity width. IMO a fairly decent figure for a retro-fit without going too much over the top. Of course it depends upon the costs........

    The BBA certs include U-values for various cavity widths.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: TimSmallIt is permissable to put in lower strength structural support during construction, on the grounds that designing for a once in 200 year wind storm during a 1 month construction window is not justified, but I agree that this needs to be considered.

    Maybe, but don't underestimate the power of the wind, or the lateral weakness of unreinforced brick walls.

    The wind was only gusting at 'up to 69mph' when the Oxgangs Primary School wall collapsed in January 2016 - that's strong but not rare (https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/public/weather/climate-extremes/#?tab=climateExtremes), and that wall was tied together, albeit not adequately.
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2017
     
    <blockquote><cite>Posted By: Mike1</cite>don't underestimate the power of the wind, or the lateral weakness of unreinforced brick walls</blockquote>

    Info on recommendations for wind force calculations for temporary works are given on page 11:

    https://www.twforum.org.uk/media/47604/tw14.030__en_pt1_issued_july14.pdf
    •  
      CommentAuthorfostertom
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2017
     
    With wind loads, which are generally hugely underestimared, I thing of a yacht sail - how much pressure does that area experience, which when resoved at quite a low-mechanical-advantage angle, can force the hull through water and waves at tens of mph?
    • CommentAuthordelprado
    • CommentTimeNov 16th 2017
     
    As a secondary question, why would anyone (Tony) build a cavity build house from scratch?
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2017
     
    Only idiots!

    I sometimes think of my walls as solid 100mm recycled aggregate block walls with external insulation, 300mm r32 batts and a brick skin for the cladding.

    My inner skin is air tight unlike most cavity walls, wet plaster hermetically sealed round all openings and a tony tray to keep wind out from under the floors.


    Let’s talk about blob and dob now that is idiotic
    • CommentAuthordelprado
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2017
     
    If I was building from scratch I think I'd still use masonry, even thugh passiv haus advocates seem to suggest timber frame is easier, but I'd use some crazy thick blockwork, like that 300mm stuff, then external insulation rendered.

    Although my real dream is actually some sort of old looking house, maybe stone with a thatched roof, but passiv...
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2017
     
    nice.
    • CommentAuthormarsaday
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2017
     
    If building from scratch how do you not use cavity ? For me i would like the external face to be brick or stone. I would want an oak frame ideally.
    • CommentAuthorMike1
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: marsadayIf building from scratch how do you not use cavity ? For me i would like the external face to be brick or stone.

    Using brick slips / stone slips / stone cladding.
    • CommentAuthorgravelld
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2017 edited
     
    Walltite can be used as a replacement for cavity ties? Wow.
    • CommentAuthorPord
    • CommentTimeNov 17th 2017
     
    Strawbale - cheap material, thermally efficient and no cavity required.
    • CommentAuthormikael
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2017 edited
     
    Posted By: Peter_in_HungaryFor new build would it be acceptable to install the product, say, half a floor at a time? At least then you could confirm a good fill and it would aid the structural soundness of the build.

    For retro fit a quick calculation would seem to show that a cavity wall would get down to about 0.35 U value or better depending on the cavity width. IMO a fairly decent figure for a retro-fit without going too much over the top. Of course it depends upon the costs........


    Posted By: TimSmallThis stuff is supposed to do away with the need for cavity wall ties (one of its uses is as a remedial wall tie alternative).

    http://walltite.basf.co.uk/applications/wall-applications/masonry-cavity-wall-insulation" rel="nofollow" >http://walltite.basf.co.uk/applications/wall-applications/masonry-cavity-wall-insulation

    ... giant brick SIP ! The video on that page is interesting to watch. It'd be good to keep an eye on the installers too.

    I think the same system can be used to fill residual cavities too, which might be a good thing to do for PIR-filled new build walls to stop thermal bypass.


    I have been lurking here for a while and recently subscribed to these forums. This post has prompted me to share some information about this idea. I am currently in the process of building a house that I hope will achieve passivhaus levels of performance, but is built from masonry. The house is being built in the Cotswolds so the outer leaf is natural stone and the inner leaf is blockwork. The blockwork will carry prestressed hollowcore slab floors on every level.

    When I was researching the different methods for insulating the building I settled upon BASF walltite, which was supposed to insulate all cavities. However I did not trust that the foam could reliably provide a replacement for wall ties, so I used Telplo ties. The way we have put the foam in is to build a lift of wall up to a max of about 2m then clean the cavitiy full and fill it with PU foam. However after I started, I found that the PU foam shrinks when it cools and can cause significant damage to the masonry. BASF walltite seems a bit worse than other foams, which I also tried. The only solution to prevent all damage was to line the inside face of the outer leaf with polythene sheet to stop the foam bonding to it. This has allowed it to shrink back a little without causing any damage. However this does mean that wall ties are mandatory as the foam is providing no alternative to the ties. My installer has said he has seen many examples of retrofit foam causing cracking in the same way, but it was only when he saw it happen in an open cavity where everything was visible when it became clear what causes the problem.
    • CommentAuthortony
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2017
     
    but presumably leaves a gap for potential draughts. are there any lateral cracks?
    • CommentAuthormikael
    • CommentTimeNov 21st 2017
     
    Posted By: tonybut presumably leaves a gap for potential draughts. are there any lateral cracks?


    The gap left is about 10mm between the foam and the inside face of the outer leaf. As long as the entire cavity is filled properly, then the gap left would not result in any draughts, as the inner leaf is still fully covered and sealed. The cracks that occurred were predominantly in external corners, where the foam pulled in, but the force on one side is always slightly higher than the other and one side ends up having to move.
    • CommentAuthorDarylP
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2017
     
    interesting...:sad: ... any photos of the polyethene sheet in situ, before and after foam pour?
    Good luck:smile:
    • CommentAuthormikael
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2017 edited
     
    Sure, here are three pictures. One showing the sheeting around a cavity tray. I have selected a cavity tray that only crosses half the 300mm cavity (Cavity trays only have to cross half the cavity) so we can get foam behind it and around it. The sheet around the cavity tray will prevent the foam from forming any bond to it, but we have carefully poured it to prevent the tray being deformed by much. When fully covered and cured the cavity tray will stick up inside the foam so an moisture which can travel down on the inside face of the outer leaf will be caught.

    The early advice I had from the foam manufacturers was to not cover the foam once it was poured and any discoloration due to UV exposure was not a problem. However I did find a few instances of new layers not bonding as well as they should to older layers, so now I always cover the foam with cheap 300mm wide black polythene DPC from toolstation to keep it pristine for the next lift. The moral of the story is not to listen to the foam manufacturers. Their foam shrinks much more than they say, and UV exposure is not as minor as claim either.

    When I started reading up on how materials are protected from UV, I found that one of the best and cheapest materials to protect from UV is carbon black. It was then I realised that black plastic would be ideal, as carbon black is used as the pigment in black plastics.
      DSCN4246.jpg
    • CommentAuthormikael
    • CommentTimeNov 22nd 2017 edited
     
    Second picture
      DSCN4247.jpg
   
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