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Green Building Bible, Fourth Edition
Green Building Bible, fourth edition (both books)
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  1.  
    I was considering installing 3 KW of solar panels in addition to the 5.8 KW I already have installed. An application was made to the DNO and they have come back with a fee of £1500 to strengthen the network to accommodate the additional export from my solar. Annoyingly, I don't really export anything as my parents live in a granny annexe and are home all day, my wife works part time and so is often at home during the day, we have 2x fridges, 2x freezers, going all the time and any excess goes via the iBoost into our 350l heatbank's two 3kw immersion heaters. I was also considering a battery installation (@5% vat as it is combined with the solar installation) to mop up any remaining excess.

    I guess the first question is whether people feel that it's worth paying that fee for the additional 3KW of storage?

    If not, then do I just scrap the idea of additional solar, or are there other options?

    I'm in the Manchester area, so I don't know if my DNO would accept an EMMA export restriction unit? If so, does anyone know how much these cost?
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2018
     
    I think you have just about covered everything, except energy reduction. That could make extra generation capacity redundant.
    Maybe some solar thermal could free up some PV generation. Just a basic flat panel, drain back system to stick in some heat somewhere (is your heatbank a cylinder or a Sunamp, can't remember).

    You could make that extra 3kWp off grid and charge some batteries, then with a bit of simple circuitry power what you like.
    I don't think that it really worthwhile though as batteries are still an expensive form of energy storage regardless of what you pay for your energy.
  2.  
    Additional connection fee: I do not have any firm calcs to back this up, but I would have thought it would be a struggle to justify the £1,500 DNO charge plus the cost of the panels, installation, potentially an inverter upgrade etc... as you can import a lot of electricity for that money.

    Batteries: I've mentioned on a different thread previously that I went to a presentation from a PHD student who had written their thesis on battery storage. Their conclusion was that for the domestic market it would be a long time until they were economical.
  3.  
    Thanks for the responses guys. They pretty much back up my own thoughts - £1500 plus solar panels and inverter would push the costs out too far for reasonable payback.

    Spending the £1500 on batteries would sit better with me than gifting it to the DNO for dubious strengthening of the grid. However, I could then only use the stored energy at night when I'd be certain of zero solar export to the grid or attach it to a dedicated circuit powering individual items such as MHRV, rainwater harvesting pumps, and anything else that needed power but wasn't as critical to always have power, such as a fridge/freezer. Neither of these would cover the costs of solar & batteries.

    As someone who enjoys a good conspiracy theory, I do wonder if the big energy companies are leaning on the network companies to prevent solar installations by making them economically nonviable. We have already heard talk of domestic solar power owners having higher standing charges for electricity grid connection in the UK and other countries/regions such as Spain, Nevada, etc. already have 'sun taxes' in place. Regardless of whether this is a deliberate strategy by the network companies to deter domestic solar it seems a bit rich to charge us to 'strengthen' the grid so we can install solar and then to also charge us extra to be connected to that gird because we have solar.
    • CommentAuthorMikel
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2018
     
    I'm bit behind with current pricing, FiTs etc. A few years ago, I considered upgrading from 3.84kW PV to 10 kW PV and asked our DNO for an estimate for putting in three-phase. They weren't keen on coming out to see but I pushed them for some indication and they said at least £10k plus costs of trenching. That put an end to that idea!

    By the sound of it, it looks like you have done the easiest items and are now into marginal returns. Batteries may become more attractive if we get more time of use or peak use tariffs. Do you record daytime and night time electricity use, electricity import and export and how much is diverted to iBoost? Worth gathering the data so you can take advantage if or when differential tariffs become available.
    • CommentAuthorowlman
    • CommentTimeJan 17th 2018
     
    I agree with Steamy; put in the extra capacity by all means, just don't grid tie it. I put in an extra 6kW to top up my original 4kW and the DNO allowed that FOC so I guess my local network is OK, although I have the suspicion that it depends on your individual DNO, mine was most helpful.
    Last time I looked, the various permissible diverters are another movable feast depending on your area/DNO, - i.e. no hard and fast rules.
  4.  
    Seems like a relatively cheap deal to me, my DNO asked for £25K + VAT to reinforce the network for my additional panels. I still don't really understand why given the max export current would have been significantly less than my max current demand. The issue seems to be voltage, which sits at a high 245V overnight, so not leaving that much headroom for additional generation. I felt the DNO was using me as an excuse to make additional profit, the cables back to the substation/transformer were only replaced 7 year's ago.......I felt they could have changed the transformer to lower the voltage slightly, given the voltage never goes below 240V, but apparently that's not possible.

    I then looked at 3-phase, they said there wasn't 3 phase to my home, I said I could see 4 cables going to the telegraph pole next to my home and 4 take-off points to the cabling further down the road. They said it probably wasn't connected, and I would have to pay for additional cabling up the street. I eventually gave up, but when I spotted some maintenance workers up a telegraph pole down the street a few months later, I got them to check the wiring, and there was 3 phase all the way to the telegraph pole outside the house. They say that their workers test can't be guaranteed, and have now offered me a compromise, pay the full amount for the cabling all the way down the road, and they will give me a discount if it turns out I do have 3 phase cabling.

    This is the problem with monopolies, you have no choice and they can potentially rip you off.
    • CommentAuthorborpin
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2018
     
    Posted By: SteamyTeaMaybe some solar thermal could free up some PV generation. Just a basic flat panel, drain back system
    Hi ST, do you have any sources for such a system. When I last looked could not find anything to use as the drain back tank.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 18th 2018 edited
     
    No I don't as nearly everything is now, rightly so, evacuated tube.
    So would be a case of cobbling together something yourself. If it is vented, it gets away from the certification (G3) I think.
    • CommentAuthorMikC
    • CommentTimeJan 23rd 2018
     
    You can get your own drain back tank made to order from someone like Newark. Other companies do this too...
    http://www.newarkcoppercylinder.co.uk/

    I've had a few made over the years. Around £150 for a 10l drainback tank IIRC. Seems expensive but it's the same work as making a bigger tank, just less copper
    • CommentAuthorMikC
    • CommentTimeJan 23rd 2018
     
    The drainback tank looks like this.
      photo 09-05-2014 10 31 02.png
  5.  
    I've just sent an email to the DNO and asked if the £1500 just covered the additional 3kw, or if the network strengthening would enable me to add future generation above the 3kw without an additional charge.

    I read somewhere that the maximum was 17kw on a single phase supply. Does anyone know if this is correct? If the £1500 charge allowed me to go anywhere near that figure, then it'd certainly be worth paying. If it's just for the 3kw, with more charges for more increases, then perhaps not.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 24th 2018
     
    Some work is contestable, which I think means you can get a suitably qualified person in to do it.
    May be worth looking at that.
    And
    It is kW not kw :wink:
  6.  
    I received a reply from the DNO. The £1500 would cover a solar installation upto 10kw, which he said was the maximum for single phase. I'd have to fill in another form to specify a request for 10kw, but the price would remain the same.

    It sounds a little more palatable and cost effective to be paying £1500 for 4.7kw, rather than 3kw so I think I may go for it. I've replied to the DNO to check if the installation is time prohibited, as I'm not going to be a position to install solar above the original 3kw for a year or more.

    I also asked about the costs of fitting a three phase supply. We have a largish house with an attached, self-contained 1 bed apartment where my parents live. I'm also considering adding a studio apartment into our garage roof, so we'd have sufficient demand on electricty to warrant a 3 phase supply.
  7.  
    The DNO bloke at ENW is excellent, just a couple of hours after sending my email, I have a response.. Very impressed.

    He said that there is no official time scale for fitting the solar, but that they would be chasing for commissioning paperwork after 12 months, and that it would be a further 2 months for them to carry out their network strengthening work.

    He also responded to my query of fitting a three phase supply. It would cost between £3k to £4k to have it fitted, but would allow us to install upto 15kW of solar generation without further costs for network strengthening.

    I could leave the main 4kW array attached to the main house, with the 1.5kW on the woodshed roof attached to the granny annex and 3kW attached to the garage and studio apartment (We would use this to charge an electric vehicle).

    I think I read that you can receive FIT and export payments for arrays split across three phase, is that correct?

    If it is, then this could help mitigate some of the 3 phase installation costs, because at the moment any additional solar doesn't qualify for FIT or export payments.
  8.  
    Its a little unclear from my research whether all meters net import and export across the 3 phases. The Association of Meter operators say meters should net across 3 phases but this document https://www.meteroperators.org.uk/images/FAQ_and_Stakeholder_Info/Reverse_running_meters_20130820.pdf suggest some meters don't conform. I tried contacting a number of meter manufacturers to tried to find out what their meters did, I either got no reply or they weren't prepared to say....... Its a difficult area, as you have limited control over what gets installed. When I installed PV on a single phase connection, I contacted my energy supplier to have my mechanical non-reversing meter replaced, SSE the DNO installed a meter which permanently posts an error, saying I am trying to fiddle the meter by reversing the current, the manufacturers says the meter isn't compatible with PV, but SSE refuses to replace it.......
    •  
      CommentAuthordjh
    • CommentTimeJan 25th 2018
     
    Posted By: ActivePassiveSSE the DNO installed a meter which permanently posts an error, saying I am trying to fiddle the meter by reversing the current, the manufacturers says the meter isn't compatible with PV, but SSE refuses to replace it.......

    What do Ofgem say about SSEs response?

    Alternatively I'd suggest trying to use the Consumer Rights Act. I don't think you actually have a relationship with the DNO as regards the meter installation, but I think you bought the right to a suitable meter from your electricity supplier by signing a contract with them, so I think I'd go to them muttering about the Act and insisting on a suitable meter, quoting the manufacturer's statement that it is not fit for purpose..
    • CommentAuthorskyewright
    • CommentTimeJan 26th 2018
     
    Posted By: ActivePassiveIts a difficult area, as you have limited control over what gets installed. When I installed PV on a single phase connection, I contacted my energy supplier to have my mechanical non-reversing meter replaced, SSE the DNO installed a meter which permanently posts an error, saying I am trying to fiddle the meter by reversing the current

    Is it actually saying that? Or is it simply reporting reverse energy detected (rEd alternating in the display?), something which is standard (required?) for normal[1] digital electricity supply meters, something that is perfectly normal, and presumably perfectly acceptable to the meter readers and your suppliers since you have a PV installation?

    Is anyone actually accusing you of fiddling the meter?

    [1] Ours doesn't do that, but then it's not 'normal'. it's an Import/Export meter which, with SSE, was an option way back when we started, but I gather is no longer offered. In the period between getting teh PV and the Import/Export meter being fitted, our old digital meter showed alternating rEd. We didn't consider it an issue & neither did the DNO.
    •  
      CommentAuthorSteamyTea
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2018
     
    It is, as skywright says, normal.
    It is also useful as you can use it to monitor when you are exporting.
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2018
     
    "Batteries may become more attractive if we get more time of use or peak use tariffs"

    Don't worry, the existing gas fuelled generators have headed that off already:

    https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2014/12/legal-challenge-to-capacity-market-in-european-court/
    • CommentAuthorTimSmall
    • CommentTimeJan 27th 2018
     
    • CommentAuthorMikC
    • CommentTimeJan 28th 2018
     
    Posted By: borpin
    Posted By: MikCYou can get your own drain back tank made to order from someone like Newark. Other companies do this too...
    http://www.newarkcoppercylinder.co.uk/" rel="nofollow" >http://www.newarkcoppercylinder.co.uk/

    I've had a few made over the years. Around £150 for a 10l drainback tank IIRC. Seems expensive but it's the same work as making a bigger tank, just less copper


    Hi Mike, Not managed to find anyone who has been able to help me on this. I got 2 evac tube panels from eco-nomical several years ago. Pipe is in and panels (less tubes) on roof I just need to connect it to the HW tank.

    Would you have any diagrams on how best to connect this together and a suggestion for the pump and controller?

    I shied away from a pressurised system as I could not find anyone locally who was interested in installing it.

    Cheers

    Brian


    Hi Brian

    I personally like the RESOL controllers, worth paying a bit extra than the cheapo Chinese ones. nice clear display.

    Ideally you want a circulation pump certified for use with Glycol, again these cost a bit more, but are better in the long run. You can use a standard circulator though if cost is an issue.

    You can plumb a drainback system with just water, but you have to be 100% sure it will fully drainback every time in case of freezing so most people just err on the side of caution and use glycol.

    The main thing regarding the pump on a drainback system is that it works a lot harder than on a closed loop system as it had to overcome the 'head'. try and put your drainback tank in the loft or as close to the panels as possible to reduce the head, (circulation pumps have a head rating which you need to consider) saves on electricity too :)

    ensure all pipework has good fall all the way back to the tank, like 10% fall if possible.


    some info and simple scematics here
    https://goo.gl/images/Sh2X7p
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